I was recently in an argument that stemmed from playing SSB on an arcade stick and it went to this. What is your position on the manner?
I think that doing stuff like retreating aerials is great and all because of the C-Stick, but I feel like this is messing with the game by letting you do what’s otherwise impossible. You could get rid of this of this issue by having something in the game maintain the momentum for you for a certain amount of frames (let’s say five for all intents and purposes) so you could do stuff like FAirs while jumping backwards. This then gets to the next point I want to make.
People who live by it will ask, “Why get rid of something that made it easy in favor of something harder?” I believe that the C-Stick, when used in this fashion, is just a crutch for poor execution. It’s totally possible to do a Hypen Smash (dash, then do a USmash while sliding) without the need for a C-Stick; I can pull it off consistently, and I do it while charging.
Unfortunately, there isn’t a catch for using the C-Stick like the easy specials in other games (you only have access to one version in at least some) as you can do everything on a C-Stick that you can do otherwise.
I was the same way. I’m a big fan of the first Smash, where there was no C-stick and all the C-buttons enabled you to jump. Of course in Smash 64, Smash attacks don’t charge, so there’s no reason why you wouldn’t be able to just use the normal input.
When it came to Brawl I got tired of hearing that click sound everytime I went for a quick Smash attack. That sort of gave it away. I learned to do it faster and avoid the click noise, but I’m not consistent at it. Nowadays I use C-stick but only for it for Quick Smashes and impossible stuff like attacking from behind in the air without losing a forward movement.
I don’t see why you shouldn’t use it. It’s right there on the control stick, and the developers programmed a use for it. It makes retreating aerials more efficient (you can do them without the C-stick, but you won’t jumo as far).
As for smashes, it doesn’t really offer an advantage over the normal method, unless you release the button too late and get a few frames of charging. It’s not really ‘cheating’, you might as well use it if you’re more comfortable doing smashes with it.
The three big things the C-stick enable is Smash DI, momentum-maintaining aerials (retreating F-airs, advancing B-airs, “thunderstorming” with D-airs without going into fastfall, U-airs without using another jump when tap jump is on) and pivot-smashing for those characters who can use it (Mario, Sonic.) “Quick” smashes are doable manually anyways, them being on the stick isn’t a big deal except for some of the hard-to-time ones like Out Of Shield Up-Smash.
Particularly thanks to momentum-maintaining aerials, I don’t think there’s a character in the game anymore that could benefit more from putting specials onto the C-stick more then Smashes/Aerials. Mostly because most of the characters I can think of that could get any use out of it (Lucas, Ness, Marth, Ivysaur, Samus, Yoshi, Olimar) are also some of the characters more reliant on using said aerials. Anybody with Tap Jump off (mostly characters with strong OoS options like Metaknight, Marth again, Mario, Kirby, Ike or Charizard) likely wants it to be Smashes/Aerials too so they can U-air freely without burning another jump- especially ol’ Meta. The only character I think who stands to have much to benifit is Zero Suit, mostly since retreating F+B while still being able to use neutral air A if needed is really, really sexy and the only thing she really has to lose is some maneuverability on a “cross up” b-air.
As for it being a good thing… I mostly think it is. Easy Smashes are a non-issue and I think the way it affects aerials is an addition to the game rather then a detraction- it’d drastically change some character’s air games for the better and doesn’t really give anyone anything unfair- not to mention it’d have a greater effect on low/mid characters like Ness, Lucas, and Ivy who are more reliant on it then characters like Marth who benefit but can probably live without it. Smash DI is more debatable- I think it’s too powerful in a game where there’s such great disparity in kill power (although without it Momentum Canceling would probably be even more powerful) and it makes a number of multi-hitting attacks go from great to junk, but it also gives control to the player at a point when they usually don’t have it (while being hit) and a lot of players enjoy the feeling of having some control over their fate.
Really? I don’t think I have ever paid attention to the clicks of controllers and arcade sticks. To me, it’s more important to do your stuff off of reaction. That, and your opponent can fool you if you’re not looking at the screen.
Just for the record, I never liked the tap jump because it easily overlapped the UTilt input if you weren’t careful (needlessly difficult in other words). Of course, one of the best things about this series is that you have several options.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to maintain jumping momentum (which is already reduced from Melee anyway), but I don’t like how the C-Stick is currently the only way to do this. As I said earlier, including something in the game that gives you a certain amount of frames to input the move (meaning not including startup) would be just as good and I would be fine with this.
I agree with this, but only to an extent. Obviously, no one likes a one sided match where they’re losing. The thing is, this decreases the consequences of being punished quite significantly. Brawl already reduced the consequences by taking out a lot of the hitstun.
The c-stick isn’t much of a problem. Shure it’s easier to flail smashes, but because of Smash’s freedom of movement, anyone can dodge a flailing smash, even if it’s Marth’s fsmash. It’s never a problem. And besides, smash attacks tend to have more start up and ending lag than most other attacks (aside from B specials). If you can dodge a smash, you can punish it easily.
Just because video games are competitive like sports, it doesn’t mean they have to be like sports to stay competitive. Chess is deep and competitive and look at the finger dexterity required to play Chess at a high level. You shouldn’t be adding extra requirements to perform certain actions. Shure it can widen the skill gap, but it’s like fake skill. You’re not really more capable than your opponent, your opponent is more incapable than you are. I hope you understand the point in the previous sentence.
However, I understand that you also play Street Fighter and that certain moves, if they were put into a single button, would break the game if they were easily spammable. The requirements for performing those moves are made to limit the abuse of those moves. Just a question out of curiosity, but, what if Street Fighter did have a special put into one button and anyone could hit it anytime. However, they did some balancing such as giving those moves more lag. I’m interested in your response.
The click noise comes from the character itself when they’re about to charge their Smash attack. It kinda sounds a pistol being loaded. For some characters it’s a different SFX, but it’ll always come out if you don’t do a Smash attack quick enough.
The thing with games like chess is that those are turn based games. Fighting games, FPS, and other genres are all done in real time. You’re obviously going to need finger dexterity and reflexes in the latter.
As for fake skill, I understand what you’re saying (L-Canceling, like I’ve said in the past, is a prime example).
The game would be played so much differently that it’s not even funny. The different versions of a special move would be diminished to one, and each version of these specials are important. Then there’s the restriction on special moves. Characters like Ibuki and Seth would be screwed over because their tools were diminished.
Speaking of which, this is my proposal for fixing the C-Stick thing with some new additions. Note, I’m just saying this to get it out of my head.
Momentum Maintenance - Basically what I said earlier. While jumping in a certain direction, you can let go of the direction being held for, say, 5-10 frames. This is vital for the next one.
Turn-around - By doing a semi-circle in the direction you want to face, you simply turn around. This and MM allow you to now do BAirs while moving forward, opening up several options. Note that this only applies when you’re in the air.
Not only can you do this with directional aerials, you can now do retreating neutrals like sex kicks. You can also now use your specials in the same fashion.
By adding these two mechanics in, the C-Stick is now more of an option than just having to do it. You can choose to use it, but you can’t do certain things otherwise.
Maybe Chess was a bad example. My point is, I see competitive gaming as mainly a battle of minds. Dexterity should not be a barrier for trying to perform certain actions. The inherent flaw with competitive gaming is that the faster a game is, the more reflexes are required to play at higher levels. However, being able to predict does out weight being able to react. Look at Mew2King, one of the best players in barlw and Melee. His entire game is based off of his predicting opponent’s playstyle. “If it’s done more than once, it’s predictable” -Mew2King. If you look at Mew2King play you’ll notice how efficient he plays. He has one of the lowest actions per minute of the top level players in Melee.
I forgot about the different versions of specials. Let’s just say there were a way to use different specials with a single button, and maybe the stick. When I said ‘anytime,’ I meant anyone could hit the button anytime, not use the special anytime. (But maybe I don’ know what you’re talking about because my Street Fighter experience is very limited. I don’t think I’ve done a special more than once)
I also like your ideas for Smash because it opens up more options. But after thinking about it for a while, I can now understand how this also allows you to do what the c-stick can do,
Instead of jumping, holding back and using the c-stick to fair (retreating fairs), you could run/walk away, jump, turnaround and fair (a different way of retreating fairs).
And you have a valid point. If you can predict, reactions are not very important. Unfortunately, there are few, if any, people that are actually psychic, let alone read minds. Reactions are important. You need them to adapt to a situation should predict wrongly and if someone makes a mistake (goes with saying really).
I don’t think what you’re talking about could really work. The other problem I didn’t mention is that charge moves like Sonic Boom become too good. Changing the startup and such would take away what makes it good.
You mean what the C-Stick CAN’T do, right, but yes, this opens up several options and makes mixups all the more interesting.
C-stick is pretty lame. It lets you do a smash instantly, and is akin to cheating. And saying ‘oh, they programmed it in’ keep in mind this is a Nintendo game. The same people who though Virtual Boy, and Cd-I games, and Wii Music were all good ideas think the C-stick is a good idea. Just use the normal commands. Thumbstick, A, B, & L are the only controls you need.