Don’t we already have 2 different Shmup Threads, one I had started and the other is a more tech talk oriented spin off?
Also this same question was addressed in both threads.
I prefer Seimtsu sticks when it comes to Shmups and other games (like Tetris Grand Master II Plus) that require a high amount of precision.
For fighters you can get away with something alot more sloppy like a current gen Happs if need to be. JLF is meant as a multipurpose stick, yes it had decent precision but for many it still lacks when it comes high accuracy than many shmup games demand. A Spring mod on a JLF is going to feel like a spring mod on a JLF. Unless you also replace the actuator with a custom made actuator you aren’t changing the dead-space in a JLF (tape mod is clown shoes retarded if you ask me).
He did mod the actuator by changing it’s position, and it’s not a spring mod(although he does say you may want to add one on top of it). He lowered the microswitches, which in turn shortens the throw. This can easily be proved via trigonometry.
Granted, this mod does look excellent for SHMUPs, and while I play they them on a stock JLF, I do understand why people use other joysticks for them. I haven’t had a chance to try out an LS-58(I’ve got nothing to mount one in) but right now this mod looks to be the best for SHMUPs as is. Sure, the JLF is a loose stick, but that makes precise movements easier to me vs a tighter stick(I can focus more on movement of it then on the amount of force I need). If you leave it lose but change the throw the stick would be amazing for shmups. Although, I do think the much shorter throw of this mod would absolutely suck for fighters.
Granted, my opinion on this may be totally different if my first japanese joystick was a seimitsu, but bias is a part of everything, and is the entire reason for this debate. It’s the same reason why people think beats headphones sound better than the likes of AKG, they have more bias towards bassy music, and they probably wouldn’t enjoy the sort of music most people who buy AKG headphones would listen to.
I got the mod done. It was pretty simple and the only thing I changed was using a razorblade to file down the actuators after I cut them because it was easier for me. Loaded up Mushi Futari and played a whole session to the end. The modded JLF was very responsive but not super stiff and I went with an added spring instead of the nylon washers. It feels like my LS 36 with slightly more tension and unlike some of the other JLF mods I’ve touched, it doesn’t feel mushy. For $5 cost for me in parts, it was a fun little project that only took me an hour. If you are really partial to JLF’s and have a spare around it’s definitely worth a shot.
I’m going to put some more time in with it, but I’m still more comfortable with an LS 32/36 mod or the LS 56. I’m putting some parts into a compact case I bought off the trading thread recently for my Dad to start getting back into Shmups so I might throw the modded JLF in there for him to enjoy.
Good controls are like a good bicycle. Ultimately, it’s up to you to pedal it, but a quality bicycle converts your energy into results more efficiently.
I’d love to know if this mod would work the same way using the Link because your idea for having two joysticks mounted in your stick (one stock, one modded) intrigues me immensely.
I’ll grant I haven’t done the mod yet, but the Link should work just fine with this mod. The mod doesn’t change the length of the shaft or modifies it in any way, so the link would still probably be just fine since it’s still to-spec to an official Sanwa JLF shaft.
Acid, as far as I know, Ikagi is correct. I’ll be building an actual test panel to try this at some point, but it’s just one thing on the long list of things I need to work on for the cabinet I’m building.
I’m thinking of modifying the JLF’s so they can sit as close to each other as possible, with the fighting stick on the left and the shmup stick on the right. Since shmups usually only use the bottom row of buttons, whereas fighters often use the top row as well, I’ll offset the two sticks a bit vertically.
The manufacturing on the JLF is a little more consistent, and I play most games better on a JLF than any other stick. I can see where he is coming from.
The only thing better about the JLF than say, a LS-40 is the microswitches are easily of higher quality, though, no less accurate. They both engage at the same point of actuation and are similar in tension.
Moonchilde, that is not the only thing that’s better. The pivot is smoother, among other things. You also need to read the part about microswitch levers.
Overall, manufacturing tolerances seem to be much tighter at Sanwa.
The pivot on the LS-40 is just as smooth, I have both. The LS-40’s pivot is simply larger. Levers are fine, I actually prefer the smoothness of levered switches and their quick engage and better diagonals. Also, my levers that are on the LS-40 are exactly the same as they day I got them, I’ve had the stick for a few years now and it gets regular usage, there is no warping or bending in the slightest. The only thing superior about the JLF is the Omron switches, because they’re of higher physical standards than the Matsushita’s, though functionality and longevity is identical.
Otherwise, I actually am of the opinion that the LS-40 has a superior housing that is far sturdier and better gates that screw in and don’t require tabs that may bend and break off.
I just wanted to give a quick bump and retract the following comments:
I wrote these after only trying the modded stick with fighters for a few minutes. After doing this mod to all my sticks, I’ve spent a lot more time using it with fighting games, and my opinion has changed.
It works great for fighting games, it took a day or two to acclimate to the shortened throw, but once you do, quarter circles, half circles, dragon punch movement, etc., are as effortless as ever. The shorter throw doesn’t hinder you in fighters the way that the longer throw does in shmups; in fact, I think it may help in execution speed.
I fully agree, using a short or no throw mod takes a little bit of getting used to and once you’re used to it, you don’t think twice about going back. Charge motions and qcf and the likes are so much faster, all that extra throw IMO just hinders things.
BTW, there may be easier ways to do this mod now a days. Bryan at Paradise Arcade has oversized actuators that hit the switches faster, I think they go by .5 mm steps so you can pretty much get the engage down to a nice 4 mm and then in the near future I believe there may be custom gates. Don’t take my word for it though on the custom gates, I know gates are being worked on but whether or not they will be able to be tweaked is still up in the air. If so, then it means you won’t have to make a bunch of measurements and cuts and drill holes in the future, just pick the ratio you want. If not, then I’ll do some gates even though the JLF isn’t my style, lol.
On the other hand, and I don’t want you to think I’m simply plugging my own stuff here, but there are now more elegant solutions to shortening the throw on Seimitsu sticks. I did a batch of gates for the LS-56 you may want to check out, it’s a simple gate replacement, remove the old one screw the new ones in. They range from different shapes (octa, square, circle) in various sizes to tweak the stick to your liking. Stock throw, short throw, and on square only no throw. More should be coming in the near future for other sticks, just a heads up. My personal favorite, the LS-40 in the very near future. Best Seimitsu stick IMO, got the pivot design right and everything, just too short a shaft
I’ve been shortening both the throw and engage of my stick over time and it only makes my execution even better. I’ve personally never understood using different sticks for different games. Shorter distance doesn’t hurt anything as far as I’m concerned and I recommend everyone do it. Less distance means less time reaching the desired input. What’s the point of having your own stick if you don’t tweak it? You can easily pad the microswitches to test it out yourself as well.
Only thing is, you’ll never want to play on a stock arcade machine.
Reviewing the mod again a year later, I still have issues with grinding down the e-clip.
If someone was still going to go ahead with this mod (which I ask them to reconsider) I would recommend a snap ring like what the LS-32 has just sized for the JLF shaft.
The destroyed e-clip isn’t going to last long with some rougher game play.
I agree with Moonchild, there way too much going on in this mod. Other than the e-clip issue the mod isn’t bad, but there lets say “more work made than required”.
I done the same effect with a over sized actuator (like what Paradise Arcade offers) and a stiffer spring.
But even a year ago I felt there way too much change just to reduce the distance of the throw.
And I tried at least dozen JLF mods (I lost count the actual number), including yours R-cade. I even sat down and tried the whole range of Paradise arcade oversized actuators.
Only thing I haven’t tried for the JLF is the silent reed switches and optical PCBs.
I did tried out other joysticks as well.
And I stick to my older statement, a JLF with a spring mod feels like a JLF with a Spring mod.
What I meant what more that a comment about springs. No matter how much you mod a JLF its still going to be a JLF and fell like a JLF, and perform like a JLF.
To me the JLF feels kinda sloppy compared to Seimitsu sticks, the JLF is more forgiving but not as sharp.
I tried pretty much the whole catalog for Sanwa and Seimitsu sticks with the exceptions of the the LS-64 and LSX-57. I even found a place that let me try out the rare $90 Sanwa JLJ flight sticks. The JLJ is the smoothest, most accurate joystick I ever tried, but they are made for flight sims and Virtual-On. But when it comes to normal ball top joysticks I was a JLF fan till I tried Seimitsu joysticks.
I am not trying to make this a Sanwa vs Seimitsu debate. I Honestly believe different folk are better suited with what ever makes them more comfortable.
Alot of MVC 2 player prefer Happ, many Tekken Players swear by Korean Parts, most Shmup players prefer the LS-32. Diago only plays on full Sanwa.
And you know what, they are all correct, that brand X Model Y Joystick is the best for them.
