I never once was proficient at high level/execution intensive play in CvS2 or MvC2. Didn’t stop me from winning local tournaments consistently. The optimal strategy isn’t nearly as optimal in those games. Its more about reads and mind games in those two. I can’t speak to GG cuz I hated everything but Reload Dizzy. In SF4 theres typically one or two strategies that can be whored out and if you aren’t careless will give you a fighting chance. You do one or two things in Marvel(the real one) and I’ll perfect you. This makes your mental “chess game” more like checkers…I like chess much better. Thats always been my problem with that series. Now…MvC3 is a different story. That game is made for 10 year olds. It has all the facets of a chess game, but with wonky hitboxes, a terrible scrub friendly comeback tactic, and one hit kills for almost everyone. Its unforgiving in the wrong ways and forgiving in different yet still wrong ways.
Like checkers but if you are getting pounded all your pieces become kings.
Haha I like this checkers/chess analogy, sorry for rambling. Hope everyone is well.
Wow mike g from what it sounds like your problem isnt really the tight frame window but more along the lines of the game having really shitty guard mechanics. And you are right its the same mechanics that have existed since the first version, where most old school veteran gamers complained about, but were shut out by the hordes of new gamers who loved not having to guess as much as u normally have to in fighting games.
Its a problem but at this point we have been playing so long that you either deal with it or stop playing cause its not going anywhere. I say that that has to be the issue since a lot of the quality fighters that you pointed out from the past have far … wait let me stop have real execution requirements. Like chained 1 frame links to do very basic bread in butters. The only time execution is ever really a problem is when your trying to do very advance things. Outside of a few characters who play almost unique to sf4 game engine. Like viper, vega, gen, and adon i know there are more but they come to mind first. And this is with any game if you want to incorporate advance gameplay you should be required to have to put in some effort. It shouldnt be easy or accessible to everyone. It should take skill and time. Its one of the few things i feel sf4 has gotten right. Sf4 is a very easily accessible game but it has just enough advance gameplay tactics that it clearly separates the truly skilled gamers from everyone else. If you dont put in the time or the effort and you play someone who has you will consistently be exposed because of it. That exposure comes in the form of missing combo’s, and miss timing links, guard strings and set ups. It happens to all of us and we all get mad in the moment.
But truth be told and this is probably the only time i will admit or say this when we lose its alway because of more than our own inability its because we were beaten. None of us play fighters by ourselves. Like if i lose because someone kept throwing me. I can get mad at not getting the throw break, or the throw system, or the situation, the controller etc, but the absolute truth is my opponent was smart enough to exploit at weakness in my gameplay at the time. I could have adapted remove myself from the situation where im being thrown, or pressured my opponent more so he had less chances to throw but i didnt, and i lost for it. Its like that for almost anything fighters are not stagnant they change and there are usually multiple options for dealing with a situation or just plain out avoiding it all together. What im saying is dont get frustrated especially if you know your own weaknesses but challenge yourself to remove those weaknesses and you dont want to do what it takes to remove them then accept that they will always be the reasons for your defeat.
Hopefully with the advent of DLC and Version updates, game companies will continue to tweak gameplay to be more balanced.
I was reading the list of changed to MvC3 in UMvC3 and a lot of characters that I thought didn’t need changing were changed, and a lot of the ones I thought were underpowered compared to certain characters (Sentinel comes to mind as OP) didn’t receive any noticeable changes that would nerf them as heavily.
Mind you, I’m not a game tester for Capcom, and they probably know things about the games only high-level players like some of the people on this board are aware of.
So who knows what they REALLY base their changes on.
I just play because fighting games are fun. We all started because of that reason, right?
So when any game isn’t fun to me anymore (whether it be because it’s lost it’s fan base and the only people left playing are exploiters/hackers/noobs, (cough cough Diablo II) or whether the game company running it refuses to fix very obvious problems with it (see MAG for the PS3)
it’s time to move on to something new.
When it comes to fighting games, everyone has bad match-ups sometimes, and there’s more to strategy than how fast you can press buttons, or what character you use. IMHO it also has to do with what I call "Gamer Vision."
and understanding in the realm of whatever game it is, what is possible, and what is not. Calculating the possibilities of what you see, and what you think you’re going to see can give you the edge against most people. And knowing people’s tendencies is also a big advantage.
Just like in a real fight, or in baseball (the batter/pitcher matchup)
Everyone has that one friend who can pick up the controller to any game and just own in it.
Any thoughts?
I really don’t get the complaint here. I’m no old schooler by any means, but if someone like Jeff Boone or Spek learn to could learn to manipulate the system, then why can’t you? These guys are old school to the core and still find enjoyment in how the mechanics work, still use footsies and spacing to a degree that I’m just starting to comprehend and purposely incorporate. Every application of ST they used in SF4 and made it work.
Ron’s been in house for like 5 days and has lost the ability to effectively cuss already! Lol
P.S. Cameo appearance by me tomorrow night. I gotta swing through and grab my router and detergent. (Long story short: I’m a witness in a state attorneys case in Tallahassee and they are flying me ($1500 plane ticket) to Tallahassee for one day.)
Good games today guys. I like the idea of these monthlies - helps me put my other characters to work in a tournament setting and gives me a reason to step up with them. Already know what I want to do to improve Fei and Rufus.
Nice work today Ron. Good choices made on your part. I’m bringing it back with the hotness next time
You know, its pretty interesting - I was playing E.Ryu vs Thanh and would get DPd during my combos, on almost every throw attempt and almost every wake up situation. Thinking that I could reciprocate this, I tried to do the same thing - he would bait all of my wake up DPs. I wasn’t mad by any means, (I still was winning) but was legitimately curious and I asked Thanh why he was DP’ing so much and he said “I like to DP.” I took something from that. I changed my tactics a bit - maintained a strong zone at distance, still in his face but where FADCing is impossible, omitted throw attempts, kept my guard strings short and purposeful, and (the most important part), did easier variations of the combos. Numerous times I purposefully left combos incomplete to punish DPs with… More incomplete combos. DPs didn’t happen anymore. The mechanics have been exposed, and counters have been developed, long before I started playing. The way I see it is this: if someone is blowing you up by exploiting these mechanics, then they are exposing YOU and your inability to adapt to it. When I was getting Ultrad on wakeup and through my dropped link by Mike G., I couldn’t think “fuck this game”. All I could think was “tighten up.” Fix the real problem - yourselves (myself included).
@Jarv: AKA why charge characters suck in this game. (THAT’S JUST A JOKE, ACTUALLY)
@Jay: I agree with you on all those points, and my problem isn’t that I don’t realize that stuff, it’s…that I’ve been trying to pretend that’s NOT the case. But Chris A’s post just now kind of brings up the same idea: changing your gameplay to account for someone abusing the bad mechanics in the game. I’m completely aware that I could stop rushing down or pressuring, but that isn’t what I WANT to do and NOT how the character was intended to play. Even though I CAN lame it out with Makoto or whatever I don’t WANT to do that, nor do I play other people nearly enough to use that as a substitute for spending time in training mode. I realize my faults but it’s easier to grab Yun and play him (unless I can play people 5-6 times a week instead of 5-6 times a month).
@Chris: See above, kinda. Can you bait DP’s through blockstrings? Sure, if you want to play in the most un-fun way possible. I could adapt to the bad mechanics of the game, but I’m not certain I even WANT to. You ever go to someone’s house to game and it just smells like ass? Yeah, you can hang around and get used to it, and you may not even smell it after a while! But you need to really want to be there to tolerate it, and it wont change the fact that the air outside is going to smell so much better.
Yeah, SFIV smells like shit. That’s the crux of what I’m trying to say.:blah:
Joking a side, I live in a town with no scene where mash DPs and Ultras are everywhere. Gainesville is the nearest scene to me and that’s when myself and the few that actually want to improve get to play with actual competition. Unfortunately the idea of wakeup DPs and Ultras through combos or block strings still stays with me because in this area, that’s what works. Another thing to consider to is since we were playing casually, I’m in more of a IDGAF state of mind. During the tournament, the DPs didn’t happen as much and threw them out with a calculated risk with the intention of stopping a mistimed meaty.
Last I checked, system exploitation and adaptation were key components of being a good FG player: doesn’t matter who you play as, or what style they play with. When you guys get hip on my offense with Rufus, what do I do? I zone, not because I want (rest assured, I don’t want to with Rufus) but because I have to. Sure, his archetype isn’t built for it, but you do what you have to: you make it work. A player doesn’t want to think? Make them think. The story is an example of that. The Ken that you kept losing to? I made him think, and he got beaten for it. Convincingly. He’ll realize his weaknesses and improve on them, while trumping those he doesn’t have to think for because they refuse to do the same thing. Its what you do to me, isn’t it? I may win quite a bit, but there’s never an automode win - every button pressed has a thought and a reason behind it. This is what I have been trained to do by all of you. At this point, you’re just being stubborn and stupid.
Switching gears a bit:
E.Ryu Tatsu into sweep combos: character specific (6/39) but they are all solid characters where a hard knockdown is invaluable.
Dhalsim
Rose
Cammy
Dee Jay
Zangief (really hard to do consistently)
Balrog
System exploitation that takes skill: Roll canceling, unfly/fastfly, etc. These are tough to use and I can recognize their applications in a legitimate way. Autoguard + massive reversal windows (that I somehow still seem to miss in this game! I suck.) is an example of system exploitation that I DON’T feel good about losing to. The rest about thinking is irrelevant because these bad game mechanics exist at every level of play. They are a constant within the game that I simply do not like. That mashing through blockstrings thing disappears at the intermediate level then rears its head again at high levels. Why? Because they don’t expect that a player that’s good at the game will take advantage of bullshit mechanics. The truth is that if you have two meters and a character with an invincible reversal that you can FADC then you are often doing yourself a disservice by not mashing through ‘blockstrings’ (though this is easier when people can’t hear your button presses).
When I lose to a character like Rose I don’t feel as annoyed. Her pokes are damn good and she doesn’t have some BS she can mash out (EX Soul Spiral is not that great for it). When I lose to E. Ryu or Rufus, however, I feel more like I lost because I wasn’t willing to dumb down my play style enough, or play knowing that at any moment you can reversal off of a 5-frame poke for 40%+ damage. Is that my fault? Yes, absolutely, I’ve never disagreed. I am bad at this game. Doesn’t mean I have to like it, and I probably never will ‘like’ this game. I never have, I’ve just been fooling myself into thinking it wasn’t as rife with bad mechanics as it is. It’s an unfortunate side effect of not having this game be my first ‘serious’ fighter.
ALSO: Damn, I know it took me a bit, but InFamous 2 is some good shit.
