Ahh I see your point, but hey one more frame to make things easier vs. viper and EX-SBK Chun-Li.
I forgot, one glaring disadvantage with using st. close jab meaty, it pushes you out of throw range as opposed to cr.LK.
A lot of good info that’s kind of gotten lost in the fold. Kinda feel like this thread should be stickied.
Bumping this. Had alot of good info and I wanna try to bring this board back from the abysmal wasteland it has become.
revisions, perhaps?
lots has changed, not to mention two key matchups that sagat is favored in.
Man I havent read this in awhile appeciate the bump
I have alot of stuff I want to post. I will post more later. Tomorrow after work, but I really want to talk about meter and how I feel Sagat as a char is really dependent on intelligent meter usage and has tons of good options. I think Sagat sitting on a full bar is one of the scariest characters in the game and as long as his user has solid reactions and decision making abilities, Sagat can handle any situation.
Yeah… meter management atm is one the biggest weakness to my game
Too much fishing for U2 or trying to score a knockdown to gain some geography (defensive or offensive)
quick caveat. standing strong can sometimes whiff because viper’s hitbox actually drops lower when she hits the ground. either delay the punish or use crouching strong instead. good stuff.
Ugh I feel bad cuz so much as been going on. Drama with this female I was talkin too, new job, hurricane, life kickin my ass but w/e. I’ll just talk about one subject that was on my mind. Meter management. Here we go.
Why is meter management important?
Meter is important for one reason. Proper meter management can often be the difference between victory and defeat.
“But EL, I just wanna throw stuff at people and besides Sagat doesn’t even really need meter like that. All he needs is two bars for TU FADC and he’s good.”
Well, you know what guys I can’t disagree with that. Sagat can certainly get away with “just” using meter for TU FADC for Ultra set-ups and to make it safe, but I feel that after the nerfs in Vanilla Sagat became a much more meter intensive character. He is now much more dynamic because he is more reliant on his meter options and they are damn good ones at that. Sagat with a full bar is one of the most dangerous chars in the game. He has so many tools at his disposal and he can literally play anyway he wants when he has alot of bar. But I think the biggest reason why Sagat players should work on meter management is because it makes him a much more fun and interesting char. If your char is boring why you even playing the game? idk about you all but I play FG’s to have fun and thats exactly what Sagat is when he uses his options and meter intelligently. He’s one of the most fun chars in the entire game.
I will go through all of Sagat’s meter options with his special moves as well as universal meter options.
EX High Tiger Shot - Start up and recovery the same as normal high shot. This thing is FAST. 2nd fastest projectile in the game after Guiles EX Boom. Two hits and blows back the enemy on hit. Sets up juggle state even with just one hit. Unfortunately it can be ducked. Like all of Sagat’s specials it can be karaed into. This version of his ex shot is pivotal for projectile wars. Throw this out and you can blow through projectiles with ease and set-up a juggle with another ex shot high or low doesn’t matter or Tiger Cannon if your reactions are good. A little tip for you. If you have Tiger Cannon and you threw out EX shot you should be buffering the motion for Tiger Cannon so when you confirm it hits you just hit PPP and call it a day.
EX Low Shot - Start up and recovery same as normal low shot. Same properties as EX high shot, but slightly worse recovery and 1 frame longer start-up. Also not quite as fast. EX Low Shot isn’t for projectile wars although it does a solid job in that department. The power of this attack is in footsies. Use this when opponents try to dance back and forth in your space or fish with focus attacks to get past your zoning. This will blow them all the way back and reset your zoning game. If they block ok thats fine. They take more chip and get pushed back a bit further then a regular shot. This sets up the same combos and juggles as the high shot version.
EX Tiger Knee Crush - Property wise it’s no different from regular Tiger Knee Crush. But the frame data tells a different tale. This move is unchanged from Vanilla. Consider it one of the remnants of the kings true power. This move is +4 on block when blocked crouching. Ideal for starting an offense and like normal TK it blows an enemy back on hit. so for rushdown Sagat this is a nice move to get in with and start some pressure if they blocked low. If they block high Sagat is at -1 though so be careful. Of course those values are for if you started the knee fairly close to the opponent. If you spaced the knee out and land with the last hit touching them then consider yourself usually around +2/+3 which is still good for mounting an offense with low short pressure strings into w/e mix-up or block string you want to do. This move became much more useful since normal TKs were nerfed in super so now EX TK has more value for rushdown Sagat. And of course this can be karaed. This move is just a good move to throw out when you are not sure what your opponent will do. The hitbox beats 99% of everything in this game barring a few moves and Ultras/Supers. It also breaks armor which is an added bonus. This is also great for escaping the corner as Sagat just plows through almost anything in his path. Be careful however as this attack does NOT have any invincibility. It just has speed and a very good hitbox. Meaties and really well placed normals will still beat this so keep that in mind.
EX Tiger Uppercut - This attack saw almost no use in Vanilla simply because regular Tiger Uppercut did 170 and the damage boost wasn’t enough to justify the meter usage. This is another attack that saw a boost in usefulness due to nerfs to Sagat. This move is solid all around though. 11 frames of invincibility. 200 damage if all hits connect AND sets up a juggle into Ultra 1 (Tiger Destruction) As an AA set-up into Tiger Destruction it’s very good and great meter management. Over 500 damage for one ex bar? YES PLEASE!!! Several chars can also be comboed into EX TU for the Ultra 1 set-up. Very very sexy. This move is also great for hit confirms as well if you want that extra damage boost and you have meter to spare.
Angry Charge - Sagat originally got this in the Alpha series. And just like back then, it powers up his next TU whether it hits, whiffs or is blocked. When it was introduced it was overhyped, then it was looked down on but now I can honestly say its a worthy addition to the arsenal of the Emperor. It buffs TU damage as I already said. lp = 130, mp = 160, hp = 180 and ex = 240. But what makes this move interesting is that it adds other properties to the TU. It adds the armor break property which is great in certain match-ups and footsies as well. Anyone with the guts to FA right in your face will regret their decision when you TU them. And since it broke their armor it’s a counter hit for 225 dmg which is a nice chunk of health. It’s especially good vs Gouken and Balrog. The other property it adds is the juggle property. Anything that sets up the juggle state can be followed up with an AC TU. It might seem like a waste of meter over his other options, but AC is really all about maximizing damage in the one moment you get. It seems to fit Sagat really well. You work to get your opponent to make that one critical error. That one shot where you just wanna hit them hard and fast so you tag them with a step rh and then a kara EX AC TU. That’s 340 damage right there. 365 if the step kick was a counter hit. BTW thats about as much damage as a super but only costing you 2 bars not 4. Sounds pretty damn awesome to me. Especially since many people think Supers are too costly for their damage well now Sagat has a way to hit that level of damage, for half the meter Guilty Gear style.
AC also has a strong psychological effect. People don’t want to jump when they see you do that which means free tiger shot chip for you. You are getting into their heads without even trying and that brings you one step closer to victory my kinsmen. AC also has lots of fun juggles with TK and augments Sagat’s corner game. A stray shot that gets landed on because someone wanted to NJ turns into respectable damage when followed up by a AC TU. Or a simple BnB combo ending in Tiger knee can do upwards of 330 damage in the corner once again thanks to AC TU. A combo such as cr.lk, cr.mp xx mk tk land then AC TU or AC EX TU can have devastating results. And of course any random tiger knee turns into good damage in the corner thanks to AC as well. AC stock does not carry over to the next round so keep that in mind when you are close to winning or the clock is running down.
Tiger Genocide - Sagat’s super. This super is one of the unknown secret gems imo. Start up varies by button pressed as does invincibility and distance traveled. All set up juggle for Ultras but MK version floats enemies the highest. Very good for Tiger Cannon juggle and does in the 600’s worth of damage. lk version is 1 frame start up and each higher version adds one frame more of start-up. lk has the most invincibility at 4 while mk has 2 and hk has 1. mk is the best in combos and punishing damn near anything that can be punished. For the stuff thats only -1 you can use lk version but usually mk will get the job done and has a slightly greater forward momentum then the lk version. lk version is amazing for blowing up safe jump attempts. Being 1 frame start up and 4 frames invincible it will blow through anything. Sometimes its a good idea to sit on a full bar simply because it opens up your punishment options. 350 damage is nothing to scoff at and Tiger Genocide can give you a little extra control over the battle. If your opponent uses an attack that only gives minimal disadvantage block hit em with the genocide and make them wish they hadn’t. This also juggles in the corner off shots and knees but an AC TU would do the same damage so its really not worth it unless you wanna be flashy. Just to give you an idea of what Genocide can punish I’ll run through a few moves. Yuns lp shoulder, Jaguar kick, pretty much any slide attack, Duds duck straight even when spaced well, most overheads, lp machine gun blow, etc. As you can see it punishes alot of moves that would otherwise be considered safe or extremely hard to punish normally.
Focus Attack Dash Cancel
This is the system mechanic that Sagat takes full advantage of. Since his uppercuts can be FADCed it’s easy for him to go into the infamous doomsday combo of TU FADC Step RH Tiger Destruction. This combo ends games and is a testament to Sagat’s title as the Comeback King. TU FADC is an extremely powerful tool allowing Sagat to go from defense to offense in an instant. The threat of this is enough to make players back off their pressure game and let Sagat breathe in an attempt to bait this response and many times giving Sagat a get out of jail free card without actually using the card in the first place! If this is blocked then Sagat lost nothing and he can easily build that bar back up again. If it hits then he gets some extra damage or a full on ultra combo and may win the game because of that or back in the game and in full control. This is option is easily one of the most powerful in the game and the fact that Sagat can use it is one of the reasons why he remained a solid pick even after his nerfs.
But FADC can get alot more interesting then that. You can FADC off any light or medium as well as any special in Sagats arsenal. So for combos you can do fun things like combo into a shot then FADC combo into TK for some nice damage which is usually a bit more damaging then combo into TU FADC step roundhouse. It’s nice for pressure too. FADC off a tiger and dash in and starting pressuring while the shot has them in block stun. I wouldn’t recommend doing this often but it is an option for you if you ever decide to try it. BTW you can FADC off his step kicks too. Don’t do this…2 bars…just…just no. NO DAMMIT!!!
Ok so now we know our options. So how do we properly manage our meter? Meter management is all about understanding your current situation, having a little bit of foresight, and considering the factors of the actual fight like time left in the round and what number round you are on. For example I would not build up to a full bar in round 1 just to use it on a super for the KO unless I absolutely had too. Why? Going into the next round with full meter is a HUGE advantage. One that I wouldn’t give up so easily. Another thing to consider if you have full bar is AC. If you are in the early parts of the round then by all means go for it. But if you are in the latter parts of the round and knowing AC doesn’t carry over to the next round it is probably in your best interest NOT to use it.
There are many other examples. Lets say you have 2 bars and you are fighting guy. Guy has one bar. Guy will try to take the fight to you so you have some choices. You can save your two bars as an emergency escape with TU FADC. Just in case he manages to get past your zoning. Alternatively you can opt to go for an ex TK. This will blow through nearly all his options and put him closer to the corner giving you more control over the match. He may use that one bar to ex run which makes ex tk as an option even more appealing because your option will beat his clean. Lets say Guy is low on health while you have health advantage. Will he risk it all tryin to get in with ex run? Or will he play it safe? Has he been risky in the past? How much time is left on the clock? All these factors must be considered concerning meter management.
There are really an infinite number of scenarios we could go over. Really its up to you to always consider different factors before using your meter and understand your present situation. Do you use ex shot to win the projectile war or save that bar for a jump in so you can ex tu to ultra 1 FTW? You could sit on bar for super or use one bar for Angry Charge so that threat of a powered up TU exist and you still have 3 bars to play with. I could go on and on my brothers, but remember to experiment. Increase your knowledge and expand your thought process. Have fun playing with what Sagat can do with meter. Trust me he’s alot of fun when you let yourself go a little and mess around with his tools.
And a nice general rule of thumb to follow before you get really comfy playing with his meter is consider two bars your safety net. Build up to two bars and let that be for TU FADC. Anymore meter then that is what you use to play with. And if you are ever in doubt of what to do with your bar, lean towards the safer option that makes the most sense for your situation and rarely will you ever go wrong.
Here are a few more helpful tips.
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For hit confirms don’t do TU FADC step rh. Just hit confirm into EX TU. Why? Because you do nearly the same damage for one bar less. With the combo ending in EX TU you do 20 less damage BUT you save an ex bar. This is a general rule of course and sometimes you will feel the need to break it, but usually I would just stand by this. Of course break this rule for Ultra set-ups.
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Now to go back on on this always remember who you are fighting when it comes to meter usage. If you are fighting Yun, well you want him out. So say you TU him out of his pressure or combo him ending with a TU then FADC into lk TK. Why? Because since Yun has low health any combo will hurt pretty much and the lk knee will give you the most space. You could do a step rh but that will leave Yun in your space which is overall disadvantageous to you. You could do HK knee but that will move Sagat farther forward. You don’t want that. You want Yun to work to close the gap. This is using meter and sacrificing damage in order to gain favorable screen positioning as well as maintain your advantage in the fight. And this also means you can build back up bar while trying to keep him out.
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As far as Angry Scar is concerned a good rule of thumb is don’t use it unless you have at least 3 bars. If you have 4 bars you DEFINITELY need to use it. Think of it as a slightly modified extra ex bar in that regard. If you are fighting Gouken or Rog then I would say feel free to have Angry Charge stocked at nearly all times. It’s THAT good vs them.
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Remember who you are fighting. Vs Ryu your meter will probably go to ex shots. Vs Dudley ex tu. Vs Vortex chars you will want to save meter for TU FADC to help you deal with their pressure and so you have a way to hopefully get out safely if you make the right guess. KNOW YOUR ENEMY AND THE RIGHT OPTIONS TO COMBAT THEM
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This is the most important rule. THINK BEFORE YOU ACT!!! As you play the game you will develop good meter management habits. But always remember to THINK. Do not be reckless with bar. Do not throw out ex moves without cause. Street Fighter is High speed chess. Every move MUST have purpose. Every buttons press and every choice you make must be centered around gaining your victory. If you don’t know why you are doing something THEN YOU SHOULDN’T BE DOING IT.
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As far as building meter goes, Sagat is no slouch. Throw a shot and whiff an lk knee. That’s some nice little meter build up there. As much as a whiffed palm from a twin. If the shot hits or is blocked that’s even more bar. Just a little something you can do if you really wanna build meter fast. Be aware that knees move you forward so after a few of these your spacing will need to be reset either be pushing your opponent back ( this the route I would take because I want to stay in control and keep the advantage) or by moving back yourself.
Hope this was helpful guys. If you need something more concerning meter usage let me know. Still things I wanna go over in the near future but I think this shall suffice for now. I may add more to this later if I think of anything.
this is a sick write up. nice stuff
Nice Emblem. I’ve been using Angry scar at the start of a round when sitting on a chunk of meter somtimes. I find it removes the mystery of how the opponent opens up the round. Do you, or anyone really, find this to be a bad thing?
Usually it helps me TU them if they dare to jump forward, and if they neutral, kara TU. And they open up with something I can react accordingly (I.e. fireball). If they do nothing, well, I have a nice charged TU ready to go.
For some reason people like to test you when you do it. As if they think no way he’s gonna TU me. Alot of the time I just rh them to give me the spacing I want so I can just save the TU for when I want that big damage. Usually if a step rh into EX AC TU for huge damage.
nice post the only part i think i dont totally agree with is the ex tiger blowing every option up. for instance i use this to get outta corners or mount an offense as you said i actually used to use it in vanilla sometimes. on the offenses i think its very true what you said. but when you are cornered or an opponent is close if they throw out a normal its not invincible. so for example vs bison you get cornered i used to use it and get out free till everyone said to me that ex knee is too good lols as soon as i told them its not invincible i had to be much wiser with it as good bisons throw out a meaty heavy kick or just make a read with it sometimes it trades as well and your stuck where u started i would say it is a great move but it doesnt beat everything in its path some ppl may take that the wrong way and just try to use it all the time lols it doesn just beat everything however as you said its a great move for the reasons you outlined.
Don’t do it on wake-up of course. That’s obvious. If it was invincible I would have stated so just like EX TU. It’s the start-up, the travel speed and the hitbox that make it great. It will beat pretty much any non invincible move when you aren’t in a wake-up situation and barring you dont get stuffed during start up. But you are right I should have clarified.
Edit: I editted the part about ex tk so people know it has no invincibility.
lols yeah i know bro not on wakeup but for example after blockin scissors from bison its a 50/50 if they stick out a hk you get what i mean though.
Obvious man is obvious. You’re in his frame trap range… duh!
A little small addition to meter management. Knowing what moves give you the most meter. I believe the best way to end a round with 2 hits is st RH xx TU giving you 100 pts worth of meter. 60/40. that being said standing RH is the best meter gain move that sagat. Setting up frame traps for st RH will allow you to build meter safely and efficiently.
Just a small addendum
ummm no sometimes your outta his range … his chp counterhit has bad range… dunno what game your playin bud?
for example you outta range so they can poke with shk or just scissor for chip thats when you try to ex knee to push your way out but its a mindgame but thank you for your expert opinion DR.
ex TK or any TK will always be beat by a meaty. if he’s in a range where he can lk scissorlegs you then you shouldn’t even be throwing out ex tk out of nowhere. it is not a get out of jail free card.
and its not a particularly good gamble either at least against bison. He can stand outside of your range and just spam RH beating out almost all of your options. thats when you should be patient and just block and wait for your opportunity.