Super Turbo - actual debate about Dreamcast vs. arcade (gameplay differences)

Evo Championship Series
1

So, after this disaster of a thread, I think the ST community deserves a clean, concise post detailing all the known (and real!) differences between arcade and Dreamcast ST.

Anyway, here are the known differences:

[list]
[]The size of the screen is slightly off (it’s a little too narrow), making the character sizes appear to be slightly too thin. There is no evidence to show that this affects gameplay in any way.
[]The Dreamcast version occasionally suffers from 1 frame of input lag (possibly more if you’re using a PSX->DC controller converter), though this is undetectable by most players.
[]During “Round 1/2/3, FIGHT!”, the game suffers from noticeable slowdown, regardless of the speed setting. In the arcade version, if you start counting from the moment the background becomes visible until the moment your can control your characters, the elapsed time is almost exactly two seconds. In the Dreamcast version, it’s almost exactly 3 seconds. This means you must slightly alter the timing of your opening attack.
[]In the arcade version, O.Chun can not control the strength of her reversal fireball. (The game “stores” the strength that you previously did.) This was corrected in the Dreamcast version. Strangely, T.Hawk and O.Dictator suffer from the same problem with reversal uppercut and reversal Devil’s Reverse, respectively - there is a DIP switch to correct O.Dictator’s, but T.Hawk’s remains in tact.
[]Holds (such as Yoga Noogie, Boxer’s throw, etc) will always have the same duration if you don’t mash.
[]Almost no difference in speed between stages.
[]Instead of “PUSH START”, it says “PRESS START”.
[]Difficult to kill and dizzy at the same time using Honda’s command throw.
[]Guile makes a grunt when he does his kick air throw.
[]No hit noise during Hawk’s Fierce punch throw.
[]Hawk’s Jab and Strong 360 sounds don’t get cut off.
[]Fei Long can’t cancel rapid fire st.Jabs into jump.
[]O.Dictator’s st.Fierce graphic glitch is corrected.
[]By default, there are a few other slight gameplay differences as well (such as Dhalsim/Ken/Sagat being able to reversal super), but aside from the above mentioned reversal glitches for Chun and Hawk, all of the tested and known differences can be corrected using the in-game DIP switches.
[/list]

Misc other info you may find useful:
ST Wiki
All about Dreamcast DIP switches
ST frame data
Lots of nerdy ST info

In case anyone is interested in the timings I recorded in regards to the “Round 1/2/3, FIGHT” delay, here’s what I found. I would also be happy to upload the AVI’s if anyone wants to double-check my work (warning: it is thoroughly boring). Times listed are in the format [WHOLE SECONDS]:[SIXTIETHS OF A SECOND], so 1:30 = one second, 30/60ths of a second = 1.5 seconds.

arcade, Guile Stage, Turbo 1, Ryu vs. Ken, 2:04
DC, Guile stage, Turbo 1, Ryu vs. Ken, 3:06

arcade, Cammy stage, Turbo 2, Ryu vs. Ken, 2:05
DC, Cammy stage, Turbo 2, Ryu vs. Ken, 3:08

arcade, Ryu stage, Turbo 3, Ryu vs. Ken, 2:00
DC, Ryu stage, Turbo 3, Ryu vs. Ken, 3:08

EDIT

As a comparison for how other consoles stack up as far as resolutions go, the PS1 version is too big, CCC2 is way too small, and AE is just slightly too thin. The Dreamcast version’s resolution isn’t 100% perfect, but it’s pretty darn close, and a hell of a lot better than CCC2.

Not so ninja edit
I asked NKI to combine all of them into 1 easy to read image.

James123 - For the “Round 1/2/3, FIGHT” test, I started counting frames when the background first became visible (it fades in from black), and I stopped counting once the characters could move. In the arcade version, on Ryu’s stage, on Turbo 3, Ryu vs. Ken, it took exactly 2 seconds. On the Dreamcast version, exact same scenario, it took slightly more than 3 seconds.

2

I love ST, am I the only one that doesn’t care which version its on? Come on guys, is the difference really that much where you can’t fucking adapt? I practice on x-box AE, ST mode, and I can combo super on any version.

Looking forward to ST @ EVO, DC’ version or whatever. Last year I was fucking too drunk LOL

anyway, good shit on the info NKI =)

3

We’d might as well sticky this topic and lock it. We all know what the fuck is going to happen to this thread.

4

If you’ve played arcade (aka the real thing) for roughly 15 years, then the difference between CCC2 and arcade is that much. Anything but CCC2 and it should be decent.

Dreamcast, PS1? Sure, why not.

5

my only gripe is off the bat moves hurt guile, bison, and balrog big time. not being able to insta do a charge move right when round starts = huge disadvantage but w/e. another horrible thing about any input lag is vs gief you will have a hell of a time uppercutting out of tick spd set ups. you can ask valle about this when he played kuni… i was sitting right there and watched him do uppercuts that never came out due to the lag. ST is only ST on arcade, any other version just call it Console SF turbo or something. save some face for this game please. TY. and fyi, evo supposedly had a bitch of a time getting DC’s last year for mvc2, so having 2 games run off DC i would only imagine makes it much worse. GL, pz.

6

Two major gripes:

  1. The whole “characters seem skinny but it doesn’t affect gameplay” is an opinion, not a fact. For me, it does affect gameplay, because having the characters be taller, I naturally think they are wider and should have longer reach. At C3 casuals, I was regularly whiffing footsies and normals that I thought should be hitting because of the size difference. Any pro SF player who counts on footsies and spacing would have the same issues, unless they played this version for a few hours previous to adapt.
  2. NKI mentions gameplay differences but not the logistical nightmare that is DC ST. First of all, getting a working Dreamcast is now a rare and costly process. Then add in the fact you need to get a memory card and somehow get the dipswitch game save on it (unless you want to beat the game 33 times, I know I don’t). Then factor in that you either need a DC-specific joystick (which almost nobody but MvC2 players own at this point) or you need to use a PS2 to DC converter of some sort, all of which add input lag. Keep in mind I said “input lag” and not “one frame of input lag” as NKI suggests, because I have seen nothing to prove that it is only one frame. I personally know that using the EMS brand converter, and playing MvC2, it adds considerable input lag to the point that I actually notice. Keep in mind I didn’t notice the 4 frames of input lag on CCC2’s version of ST. Also, some of the adapters don’t even have settings to properly use L-buttons on a PS2 controller, which some people with custom joysticks have a major problem with. Finally, very few of the DC adapters actually work when you plug them in the first time - many you have to plug, unplug, wiggle, fuck with, etc. until they finally work. My personal experience speaks volumes here.

Now, you might say that these issues aren’t “differences from arcade,” but you would be wrong. When you play on arcade (or any other version of console ST for that matter) you can pretty much just walk in and play. On DC, you have to deal with all of these logistical issues before you can press start. Which is one of the major reasons ST players are saying “bullshit” that EVO chose this version of ST this year, instead of using a previous version.

This thread has good intentions as did mine, but unfortunately I don’t think it’s going to help. There aren’t enough people actively playing the DC version of ST, simply because it’s not accessible for the masses and a lot of people simply aren’t going to EVO this year due to lower prizes and lack of new games. Hopefully I’m wrong, and people will post more constructive info, but it never happened in the other thread after I repeatedly asked for it.

7

Agreed, this years evo should use the arcade machines for ST like Evo2k2, considering that I use old guile and don’t want input lag:china:

Why don’t you guys report this concern to ponder or inkblot?

8

PLEASE STOP POSTING MISINFORMATION.

If you had bothered to click on the links in my original post, you would’ve known that the characters are NOT taller. Additionally, I don’t know how on earth you can perceive the characters as being wider, when in fact they are thinner. How can anyone take you seriously when you miss basic, blatant things like this?

This thread is purely for discussing gameplay differences, not logistics. Besides, most of your so-called “logistical nightmares” (such as attaining the save file, and input lag on converters) are not issues AT ALL, and this has already been pointed out to you.

9

Thanks for making this thread, NKI. :smile:

I vaguely remember hearing something about a Dee Jay cross-up combo or something like it that does or doesn’t work as well only on Turbo 1 or maybe another speed… does anyone have any clue what I’m talking about? If so, would someone please be able to explain it to me?

10

Yes, thank you for jogging my memory. :tup:

There is a DeeJay combo which doesn’t work in training mode on Turbo 3. The exact combo is cross-up j.Forward, st.Short, cr.Jab, st.Strong xx super. (The super won’t combo.) It works on slower speeds though.

I’ll have to test out whether or not it works in arcade and versus mode.

11

ZachD’s weekly tournaments are run on DC ST. Northwest 2007 and 2008 regionals are run on DC ST. We had Japanese players like Itazan and Yohsuke playing on DC ST at these tournaments, FYI – these guys are Evo champions.

DC ST is the best console port out there. And people have already started practicing on DC so it’s too late to change it now. Anyways this will become a moot point after august since xbox360 will be used after that.

12

The piggybacking of ‘tournament play’ onto these otherwise informative threads ruins them. Until people realize that the tournament community is full of different perspectives, and that not everyone cares about the same things, there will be constant problems. I think we know where everyone stands, and arguing the same points over and over isn’t going to change it.

13

I’ve seen this combo miss in the arcade. I think it might be dependent on what character is on the receiving end of it (kind of how Dee Jay’s dourble dread kick misses some characters for 2 hits and misses others). I’ve NEVER seen this combo performed in any match ever. It may be an indication of the differences between the 2 versions, but it won’t affect 1 single game played at EVO, guaranteed.

The best players always adapt, period.

-wes

14

evo is a console tournament.

there will never be arcade boards used again in our format.

15

What are you trying to say here? You can still do charge moves at the beginning of the round on DC…

16

Did you ever see the episode of scrubs where that guy sings that “Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong” song? I’m singing it right now.

Hook DC ST up to a TV on one set of inputs. Hook up any other console version of ST (I tested with CCC2 which uses the correct arcade aspect ratio) to the other set of inputs. Get out a ruler. Measure how tall Ryu is on DC. Now measure how tall he is on CCC2. He’s actually taller on DC - I tested this in front of multiple people who I can have come in here and back me up, if you require me to do so. Same width, different height. It’s not just the sprites, it’s the entire screen - it’s stretched out vertically. It fucks with your head if you don’t play the game for a bit, and makes you feel like your limbs are short, or the hitboxes are shorter, when in reality it’s just a perspective issue b/c your character is taller on DC.

I have no reason to lie. Why would I try to say something about a game that isn’t true and would fuck with people reading this thread pre-EVO, wanting to know differences in gameplay? That would be pretty dick of me.

17

If the time you are able to move at FIGHT is delayed, it drastically fucks with your timing for start-up moves, such as the ones Watson is suggesting. This is an even worse problem with PS1 ST where the game looks like it’s locking up because it’s so slow. That’s what he’s trying to say - sure the moves work, but you need to master different timing.

18

One timing change in the beginning of the round is better than the entire game having screwed up timing ( CCC2 )

19

You may want to try using the actual arcade board (not CCC2). I did this exact same test using arcade and DC, and I ran the test both through my TV, and through the TV card on my computer. The characters were exactly the same height. Slightly thinner on DC, but same height, as you can see here.

I’m thinking CCC2 does not output at the right resolution. I’ll test it when I get home.

20

Wow, that whole “skinniness” thing is really odd. If the hitboxes are the same, but the characters look skinnier, that could obviously also be a difference. At this point I don’t know, I just know that I got thrown off when playing at C3 because I knew the aspect ratio wasn’t correct.

Also, if CCC2 wasn’t the correct aspect ratio, I’m going to have Sirlin deported.