Simply put, he can store the super. Because you can store the super, you get all kinds of fake-outs that can put pressure on your opponent and force them into the corner…which is exactly what you’re looking to do with Honda.
Do the super motion and keep holding forward without pressing punch, then quickly jump forward, and crouch down-forward instead of down-back like usual when you land. The opponent thinks you’re blocking backwards and tries to attack with footies or throw a fireball. Just press forward and punch to unlease the beast and blast through whatever it is they’re trying to do. OOPS, they crapped their pants and ate a decent amount of damage.
The super is very BAD for anti-air uses, for sure. Sometimes it whiffs completely or trades or only hits once, leaving you open afterwards. It’s also best used at close to mid-range…at far range it doesn’t hit properly when it finally arrives.
that’s how i use it, but it doesn’t seem really reliable. even from close to mid, i store it, try to go through hados or whatever, and when the first hit lands, it never combos afterward.
so here’s my question. using it to go through hados makes it harder to land all the hits, or is the super THAT random?
Zangief and T. Hawk both have useful supers, assuming you can tick into them, which isn’t hard.
Of course, you list of guys with useful supers is pretty close to the list of top characters - certainly not all coincidence. All the storable supers are silly, really a stupid bug that never should have made it into the game. Chun’s is probably the worst when combined with her fast foot speed, it’s a get out of jail free card when she’s way behind, store the super, walk up, mix up throws and supers and maybe you’ll get lucky and win when you really shouldn’t have. It’s retarded that you can get 40% damage for just releasing a button at the right time.
As far as Vega vs. Honda is concerned…don’t get behind. Nothing says you have to attack. The other thing you can do is walk towards Honda mixing with a liberal amount of jumping backwards and kicking. It’s basically the same matchup as Blanka vs. Honda.
If you think having supers that take forever to build up and that it’s just as easy to land those throw supers as the ones I listed, you must be better than Kuni at tick throwing!
My list of useful supers is most definitely not the top tier list of the game. Chun isn’t top, Honda certainly isn’t top, Ryu is probably just below top, Dictator Bison isn’t top. In fact, if you look at the true top tier of the game - arguably Vega (claw), O.Sagat, O.Ken, and N.Dhalsim, only ONE of them uses a super effectively.
Is charging supers a glitch? Yes, it is. But honestly, so is comboing three air hyper vipers beams with Cable…the creators of the game didn’t expect the charge system of ST, or the air-super system of MvC2, to work that way, but it just ended up being like that. People have grown to accept it. It may give Chun an advantage in certain situations, yes, but it’s certainly not game-breaking.
As for the Honda-Vega matchup, your argument is that you “shouldn’t get behind.” You’re forgetting one crucial thing: as soon as Honda does a headbutt and you block, you are behind. You can’t do anything to chip because headbutt stops it all easily, with little timing. SO unless both of you sit still and do absolutely nothing, and you keep a charge so you can backflip a headbutt perfectly on reaction…you will always be behind in that matchup, UNLESS your opponent makes a mistake. Which is exactly what I said in my strategy…that matchup is random unless your opponent just sits and headbutts all day, in which case you lose 100% and there’s nothing you can do.
The Blanka-Honda matchup is even worse, because you can’t do ANY specials without getting headbutted afterwards for free. In fact, your best bet in that matchup is just to walk forward and wait for headbutt, and when you see it jump directly backwards with forward kick and pray you beat the headbutt or land behind it, so you can throw and then run the rest of the match. But good luck jumping perfectly and not eating the headbutt or blocking…in which case, you lose for free.
And of course, in both matches you’re forgetting that Honda can just mash medium punch at any time for free chip, and you’re behind from that point onward.
Other matchups for Honda that are positive?
Let’s run down the lineup…
Honda flat out loses to shotos, so Ryu and Ken are out.
Honda beats Blanka clean.
Honda vs Gief…honestly Gief can’t do anything in this match if he can’t get a knockdown. The only way he’ll pull that off vs. a good turtle Honda is to do a lariat when Honda does a random headbutt. If Honda is a good enough turtle, he can block the whole time and do headbutt on reaction of Gief tries to attack, then use medium punch hand slaps to chip if he gets into range, then just keep blocking. If you DON’T get knocked down, this match is a win for free.
Honda vs. Chun: crappy match. Chun’s jump short beats a lot of crap and sometimes crosses up Honda randomly. Her fireballs give him trouble too and her upkick can go through jump attacks and buttdrops. If she gets inside you will have a lot of probs and she will start getting free crossups you can do nothing about. Best case scenario is to just wait it out beginning of match…if she advances, do a headbutt and wait her out. If she throws a fireball, make sure you have charge for buttsplash and do it quickly. If she jumps, do jab headbutt as if it were a shoryuken to knock her out of her shorts…but watch out because if she starts doing flips on you or crosses you up, you are royally fucked. It’s a hard match for Honda.
Honda vs. Guile: Honda can actually win this match convincingly if he does the right thing at the beginning of the round. Just wait it out and wait for the first sonic boom while Guile is still close…if he jumps back, do a fierce headbutt quickly to get closer to him…range is the key in this match. Once the sonic boom comes out, do a splash, then follow up with medium punch hands. Repeat, he’s going to be forced to throw booms if you’re ahead and you can just keep splashing and slapping over and over. If he jumps, HEADBUTT. BUT if Guile gets away from you, you WILL get zoned with booms/jumpkicks/sweeps so you will be fucked if you’re ever NOT close to him.
Honda vs. Sim: This match is supposed to be a fair match, but the more I play it the more I find that Sim is just too good. His fireballs are slow enough so if you try to jump or splash over, you will eat foot or slides. Again the key is staying close enough so Sim can’t zone you out from long distance…but the problem is, Sim has ridiculous throw priority, so if you try to splash over a close fireball and follow up, he might throw you out of it, or just start doing crazy drills all over you. Tough match but a turtle Honda SHOULD prevail if he stays inside.
Honda vs. Balrog (boxer) is tough, because he can just do rush punches to you and if you try to guess and do headbutt, he can end up using HIS headbutt and royally fucking you. Same thing with your slaps…he can headbutt through them which is pretty stupid. If you miss a headbutt (you do a jab headbutt and it whiffs for example) you will be eating punches and then blocking for ages. If you try random splashes Rog’s headbutt can escape or even hit you out of it. Tough, but if you block a lot and can do headbutts on reaction, you can win.
Honda vs. Vega (claw) is clean win for Honda.
Honda vs. O.Sagat is interesting match, because Honda’s headbutt actually goes OVER the low tiger shot, which a LOT of people don’t even know. BUT as I told Flash at EVO this year, if your opponent knows this they will just throw random high tigers and totally fuck up your game…you can’t headbutt if they just keep throwing them, leaving you to jump (And eat uppercut or stand FP) or splash (eat uppercut or sweep). It’s a tough match for Honda and I say O.Sagat wins clean.
Honda vs. Bison (dictator): honestly I’m not sure how this match goes because I don’t think I’ve ever even played it, since I don’t use either of the characters much. However, if you can keep using properly spaced splashes, it’s likely there’s not much Bison can do. The problem is making him block that first splash and then continuing the low forward kick->buffer into properly spaced splash…because Bison is usually doing scissors and torpedoes and all kinds of shit in your fat face that you can’t do much about. From what I remember the headbutt doesn’t beat either of those specials clean except in certain cases…this would be a tough match for Honda I would assume, but I’m not too sure.
Honda loses to Dee Jay clean, there’s just nothing he can do to a good zoning Dee Jay.
Honda vs. Fei: no idea really but I would have to say a turtling Honda would win this one.
Honda vs. THawk: Same matchup as Gief except THawk has a few things he can use - jumping jab which has ridiculous priority and WILL knock you out of a buttsplash…and his dive down/dive up. THawk will try to fool you into blocking a dive that misses and then throw or tick into throw…OR be even sneakier and make you think you can attack after the whiffed dive and then do the dive up through whatever you’re doing. However, a turtle Honda can win this match if he just blocks all day and does headbutts on reaction.
Honda vs. Cammy: think about it, what can Cammy do to you besides try to do the hooligan throw, or try to cross up? Just block and headbutt on reaction.
I’m actually trying to learn N.Ken over O.Ken, cause N.Ken has knee bash tricks, short short super and crazy stun combo (which i don’t know how to do, please list it). But other than that, could you elaborate what O.Ken has over N.Ken?
His dps have more invincibility, everybody knows that. But he also has slighly better fireballs, according to the frame data that can be found on T. Akiba’s site : http://games.t-akiba.net/sf2/flame.html
They come out one frame faster (13 for old ken and 14 for new ken) and they have better recovery : 39 for old ken (lp mp and hp fireballs) and 39 (lp), 40 (mp), 41 (hp) for new ken.
There’s also another difference that people don’t always take in consideration, it’s that super characters don’t have the possibility to tech throws, and tech throws are very useful in this game.
Eishi, think you can help a guy out and give some tips on reading the info from that site? All I see is lots of "@"s and squares and stuff. The numbers are there, but I can’t tell what they correspond with.
Even some japanese (which I can’t read) would be better than that…
Click on the “view” tab of your browser, then click on “charater encoding”. Choose japanese, if you don’t have the japanese fonts installed on your PC it should propose you to download them.
No, it certainly isn’t game breaking. It is a valid complain about ST though.
Yeah…I know. I’m not saying it’s an easy fight or something. I mean, it’s probably 8-2 Honda. But it’s not like there is nothing at all you can do.
For Honda to actually get ahead isn’t that easy if you are willing to sit there and do nothing. Of course, then the match consists of both characters just doing nothing.
It’s easier for Vega because he can flip kick or just flip through a headbutt, whereas Blanka just has to block it or jump over it.
You are approaching this fight like Honda can sit there doing nothing and Vega has to attack. Vega doesn’t have to attack, he can also sit there and do nothing.
Blanka-Honda is obviously awful. But you don’t lose for free the first time you block. I mean, if you walk straight up to Honda he has to do SOMETHING, and if that’s a headbutt you can jump back and hit him. Obviously he has to press a button at some point.
I think this discussion is mostly academic because like I said Vega-Honda is probably 2-8 and Blanka-Honda 1-9. However I wouldn’t take my hand off the controller and say there was nothing I could do…
There are people that don’t know this…seriously? I remember how strange it was in Alpha or CVS or whatever where Honda’s headbutt would go under high tigers instead of over low ones. I find it really hard to believe that people don’t know this…maybe people who started playing 3 weeks ago…
Blanka vs Honda is not a hard matchup. Mp electricity has something like 80% chances of countering the headbutt. You can also jump straight up then press lk on the way down. Often times, people make the mistake of using Blanka’s rolling attack in an offensive way when in fact it is more reliable as a defense tool. It comes out instantly (zero frames) so it’s a good way to counter tick throws, for example. You can also use it to make nice tricks : after you knock down your opponent with 3 hp or 2 hk, do a rolling attack. Depending on the spacing and the button used, you’ll end up in front of them or behind them.
I just wanted to clarify the use of the rolling attack. This is clearly not blanka’s biggest asset. Blanka has very good normals, great combos with great dizzy potential and a very unique jump, which allow him to do things other characters can not do.
The problem with your strategy is that it isn’t practical in a real game. Nobody can do MP electricity on reaction of seeing a headbutt, so good luck getting it to come out when Honda starts doing FP headbutts. And jumping straight up? I’m sure that works when you’re at fullscreen distance, but let’s face it, when have you ever seen Honda do a FULL SCREEN headbutt? Honda’s best range to fight is mid, because he has the option of doing a quick FP headbutt at any time and more than likely making you block since you’re too close to jump on reaction.
Trust me, I’m not trying to shit on Blanka here, if you know me you’d know that I play him a LOT in casuals and have been trying to make him a legitimate tournament character for years. However, in a Honda vs. Blanka match, Blanka literally can’t do a think to a super-turtling Honda. If you sit still, he can headbutt and chip. If you walk forward, he can headbutt and you can’t jump fast enough since you’re too close. You can NEVER do a ball in the matchup, which is pretty lame, unless it’s desperation and you need to escape a throw setup (in which case Honda may not have a charge). And you certainly can’t do MP electricity on reaction to stop FP headbutts, ESPECIALLY at mid-range, unless you’ve been practicing a ridiculous amount or have a turbo joystick. Blanka gets owned up in this matchup if Honda just turtles.
Can I get some general Guile strats? I can super, but comboing into it seems practically impossible. I’m sure the japanese players can do it, but I don’t have the execution for it :lol:
I think the point was you can do MP electricity and from there Honda is the one that has to do something. (I’m not going to pretend I knew MP elec stops the headbutt) Or else you both can just sit there. If Honda moves forward, you can stop the electricity and poke at him. If he doesn’t move forward…well that’s a pretty boring game.
Honda is a very poorly designed character. There are way too many matches where the best strategy for both chars is to do nothing. Honda can be played too reactively and having a special that is very good anti-ground and anti-air is a bad idea.
As far as Blanka being a legit tourney character…good luck. I have a lot of Blanka tricks up my sleeve that can win some matches but once the tricks run out Blanka just doesn’t have a lot of the tools other chars have.
