What up Wheezy.
They are not contradictory. There are other trade offs.
I like a little nerf on o. sagat and claw like in HDR too. But that’s not the only changes made in HDR sadly.
ST is not perfect but there are worst.
Classic Mode HDR on XBL is your new best friend :karate: He usually goes on around 2am if your’re up. You’ll definitely enjoy playing his DJ.
Papasi:
Great interview with XSPR…it’s nice to get some insight on the players. I’ll try to get on ggpo so we can discuss an ST tourney at wcw. Sorry I’ve been out of the loop (work).
XSPR: Good games as always on Classic Mode…it’s nice to be able to get some great matches at 2am pst.
Sorry for the plug for Classic mode on xbl (I wish more guys would jump on that)
arcade > xboxlive classic mode > ggpo.
a few weeks ago me, cwheezy, synco, and moocus played at arcade infinity for a good amount of hours. that was the first time I’ve played on arcade for a good 3 or 4 years and damn did that shit feel good. I know why the og’s complain about the console versions now. I went home and loaded up GGPO, and that shit felt like a piece of shit. I’m on windows 7 so maybe the XP guys have a better experience, but to me it felt like a really bad knock off of the arcade. the speed difference, the response, the input lag. it was just really off.
hdr classic is off too, but slightly better then ggpo. I can’t put my finger on it, but to me ggpo feels “like it slides”. thats the best way I could try to describe it. something about it running on a computer maybe.
this was when i had bad spiky internet. I just switched back to DSL and its a stable connection again so I’ll give it another shot. but even with my crappy internet, hdr classic felt better.
well kinda, I mean even looking it is flat would be like game with 3 banned characters better than game with one banned character? what?
CWheezy, play the game you like. If you want to discuss ST vs HDR, go here, please.
I don’t know what kind of job you black people do (meaning you, your bro, aqua snake, etc etc) that allow you guys to play games from 2am to 5am on weekdays -_-
If you’re hiring I’m interested haha
I’ve only played against YuuVega exactly one time, a ranked match on XBL Classic. I’ve tried to randomly encounter him many times after that, but he’s harder to find than MissingNo.
pause for awkward silence
Besides, I’m done with XBL.
But how about all the Fudd fans? You can’t do this…
That isn’t st vs hdr thing, it is pointing out logical inconsistencies thing
Then your logic definitely doesn’t follow. More characters worthy of banning alone wouldn’t be the only criteria to prefer one game over another. You need to account for a lot more differences than that.
Thank you Kuroppi, I appreciate that, especially since you’ve also been playing for all those years since around the time I started. The first time we played was in an ST tournament in Vegas, during Winter of early 96 I think it was. I faced you and Watson, both eliminated me pretty easily and you guys went on to win it. Then the next night was an Alpha 1 tournament at Circus Circus, I think Choi won that but people had expected Watson’s ken roll trap to dominate. (Thanks for the marquee and keychains prizes, Capcom.)
re: smokey arcades- yeah I’ve definitely tried talking to people here about this, arcade operators and players, like maybe having a “smoke free” night or just getting people interested, but I think smoking is part of the attraction for a good number of customers.
Thanks DG, always a pleasure. You’ve got the consistent wins with Ryu-Ryu hands down, I just try and keep up. I’m always down for Classic. I didn’t finish the quote after busting imitators handed to me: “but with DG along with V, it’s inherited, it runs in the family”.
DNGR yeah there are some speed changes but I bet it’s mostly just Windows 7. XP or Windows 2000 runs ggpo/fba much, much better. I’ve tried everything in 7, virtual machines of XP/2000, compatibility mode, turning off aero, blitter etc. settings, all that, nothing fixes it.
o.Sagat has really fast recovery time, and was really damaging. His tiger shots are still pretty fast in remix, and I don’t really like the juggling knee but most people don’t take enough advantage of it like say, Zangief’s buffs or Fei Long’s, those two are very dangerous now esp gief. Claw’s wall dive not knocking down is definitely better I guess, but if you have to do things like go into a corner of all places just to be able to reasonably defend against it properly, not a bad response but then again, now you’re in the corner, kind of out of the frying pan into the fire. Tokido demonstrated how threatening the wall dive still is, he used this one move to almost win a tournament with.
Papasi has done a lot for the ST scene, not only with these interviews so we get to know one another a little more but in running tournaments as well. Are you doing anything at all to improve your scene like he is? If you don’t want to help out in the effort to make a better scene or even say thank you, that’s one thing, but until you start offering up your own solutions/ideas/time/work like he has, your complaints hold no value. You don’t like my interview, fine, post something more important to you related to ST, or go interview someone you’re interested in-- no one’s stopping you. I’ll even interview you. As far as I’m concerned, everyone should get interviewed, not just awesome people such as myself. In a sense what you put into the scene is proportional to what you will get out of it. First question is what are you doing for the scene? What kind of scene do you want? We know you don’t exactly win X-MANIA either, so how do you want to fit in to all of this? Light a candle, be the change you want to see in your scene, otherwise you’re just wasting your time. Cause pretty soon it won’t just be your scene it will be McDonald’s, Coke’s and Nike’s, and the only interview you’ll be giving is answering a marketing survey. Interviews are great because they’re easy to do (but take a lot more time than you might expect), and we’re a diverse group with sometimes wildly different opinions, experiences and backgrounds.
I mentioned the tournament from Winter '96 above- Zass was there too. Right before the tournament started, he was trying to gather a bunch of guys to go get an employee to fix the buttons/stick before the tournament started. He said it would be more convincing to get arcade staff to actually do anything if a whole bunch of people all go at once, which made perfect sense but most of us (myself included) just shrugged our shoulders, and folded our arms standing around doing nothing. It didn’t help the sticks get fixed any faster.
-XSPR
?
lol are u kidding?
u didn’t pwn me at all infact I mainly only use bison to counter guile and old sagat otherwise if I used him in anyother match then I am not taking who I am playing against seriously jerkoff…and besides if you got some wins off of my bison with ur chun big freakn deal…thats a very hard match for bison cause she has many ways of locking him down and cheaping him to death…I know cause I play chun li as well…so don’t try to throw that in my face lol
There are plenty of players that respect me on ggpo that don’t flame me like you try to do…
I ain’t gonna travel to evo just to play money match with u…come down to wcw then I will…I even challenged you to st on ggpo when u were on last night but you pussied out so you are all talk and no show.
back the fuck off
Great interview papasi! And it’s great to hear from fellow old timer David.
David it’s great that you are playing on XBL. I always felt bad that we never got the chance to play together when I lived in Japan. Hope we can play on xbox sometime!
God looking back, we were all so bad back in boston. Back then doing a DP after blocking the first couple of hits of DJ/Boxer’s super was GODLIKE. Now, you’re a scrub if you don’t do it 
Fun read. I wasn’t around for the Alpha 3 days at 8 on the Break, but I got into fighting games again right after that so I’m very familiar with Todd’s tournaments from that era. Those were fun times. Makes me wish I got into the scene a few years earlier than I did.
I agree re: Claw/O. Sagat. Amazing how much more “smart” the game feels without those characters. I might even include Boxer in that list. Just because someone prefers ST doesn’t mean it can’t be a more fun experience with tweaks. It’s not always black and white like that. Just an opinion, that’s all. Also, lol @ the HDR “remixer” discussion. That was great. :tup:
o sagat should be banned except if you’re fighting dhalsim.
boxer should be banned online. He’s semi-legit for offline tournament.
claw should be there just because dhalsim is not banned.
cammy should be banned forever since she is just a strawman for people to complain ST being imbalanced anyway
OK I confessed that when I first played kuroppi he was puzzled that I didn’t dp after blocking his super’s 1st hit.
He didn’t exactly call me the s word so I thank him for that. But I can’t tell for sure if he actually label me as one though
O.Sagat loses to Boxer, Dhalsim, and Claw. He goes even with or barely has the edge against Dictator (and Fei according to many). And he a few 6-4 matches that aren’t easy like Chun or Zangief. O.Sagat is not really that powerful of a character despite what others think. He has a tiny throw range, can’t soften throws, and his dragon punches can be punished easily by most of the cast. He’s not invincible. People tend to overrate his prowess and exaggerate his abilities because he has a few, emphasis on few, really lopsided matches. He is not like 3S Chun where she literally has advantage matches across the board against the entire cast. And even then I don’t see anyone who is competitive in 3S advocating that she be banned.
Boxer is good but his only really lopsided matches are Cammy, Blanka, and N.Sagat. And Cammy and Blanka can end that match with one solid knockdown. N.Sagat is the only one who really has to make so many guesses to win the Boxer match that it’s very frustrating. Every other match that Boxer has is closer to even than lopsided in my opinion. And Boxer’s Super is not as strong as people think either. I’ve seen Hawk players dragon punch him out of his Super tons of times this year for example. And of course you can often throw him out of it in the corner when the Super twitches. Boxer also is the easiest character in the game to safe jump by far, he has the longest rising animation from knockdown, and his reversal attacks outside of his Super (headbutts) have tons of starting frames. Look what happens to Boxer when Zangief or Hawk knock him down, it’s basically game over unless Boxer has a Super, and even then both characters can guess right and knock him out of his Super and keep him from doing anything other than taking damage.
Claw and Dhalsim are both very strong and I’d argue that one of them is the best character in the game, well above O.Sagat or Boxer or Chun. Personally I’d say that Claw is the best character in ST because he has incredibly powerful offensive options. But both of them are the easiest characters to dizzy. Just two hits from any medium or heavy attack can often dizzy either of them. Dhalsim has problems with throws as well. I believe Futachan (Ryu) took out a team of three Claw players at a tournament recently.
The point is that every character in the game has multiple weaknesses that can be exploited or taken advantage of. No match in ST is not winnable. Every character has the right tools to win even their worst matches. Of course the top tier characters in ST are good, look at the ST system, damage is high, stun is easy to inflict, the game moves incredibly fast, and most characters have huge damage combos, throw loops, and Supers. But the low tier characters have great tools as well.
As far as balance goes ST turned out extraordinarily well. I think it’s the most balanced version of SFII, better than even Hyper Fighting. I don’t think Capcom ever imagined that all these years later that ST would evolve into the game that it is now today. Every N.Character is considered competitive (all of them but Fei were represented at SBO last year). And last year I believe that every team at SBO had a different makeup (and that was a 16 team tournament as opposed to the 32 team tournaments of years past). And I’d say that more than half of the O.Characters are even competitive. The amount of change the game has seen, characters like O.Hawk emerging into dangerous tournament warriors after being considered below competitive for years, Taira turning Dictator into a low risk defense oriented footsie character and rewriting the book on Dictator, N.Hawk walking 720s and new throw loops being discovered, Komoda and AFO succeeding with Blanka consistently at the highest levels of play to the point where Komoda was considered the best in Japan. Look at how much was packed inside of a game that is only a few megabytes of data, compared to the massive multiple gigabytes sized games now, is almost unfathomable.
Futachan did beat a 3 Claw team at the last Thunder Beast Cup, but D lost for free to one of them (MAO) at the same tournament. The game is awesome, but there are definitely a few issues regarding balance:[LIST]
[]all Guile-like characters (Guile, Chun, Dee Jay) lose to Ryu, but beat Ken convincingly;
[]Ken is quite weak against the top tier
[]As great as they are, most times I see Komoda and Nakamura against the cream of the crop with top tier + Ryu, they lose;
[]Rog’s headbutt beats pretty much every other move in the game. Including O.Ken’s jab SRK due to defensive hitboxes being often out of reach;
[]Most Cammy’s offensive options get countered by the same move and on reaction;
[]It is hard to get the hits on Claw: he can try many of his invulnerable reversals on wake-up;
[]O.Sagat has similar strategies against shotos, but the latter ones must react faster to apply them, have shorter reach on their normals, do less dizzy damage, can not punish Sagat’s limbs by jumping straight up nor can sweep a jump guaranteed after a projectile. They have a really hard time;
[]Honda.
[/LIST]IMHO, if Capcom did HDR the right way, there would be no question as to what game to play. But hey had to use gay anime style art, add absolutely horrible music (WFT, really), not support the game after the release, remove half the characters from the game and due to basically zero effort on it (they didn’t even produce it) it did not get feedback from the very best players of the world. I suspect if one lists the best 3 players for each character, no more than 3 of them were listened to.
The potential is there for o.Sagat and claw to get advantages that are too good. With old/Super Sagat, it’s about two things, namely 1) the high speed of his tiger shot fb projectile, and 2) his recovery time (and those two things complement one another). His throw range isn’t any worse than just about anyone else except honda and sim. Yeah his dp move is something of an anomaly but if you get caught by it low it is very powerful. But that’s ok, you probably won’t get hit too often because you’ll be too busy blocking tigers most of the time. With claw, it’s mostly the wall dive, but he also has extras: extra range, damage, and speed. Dhalsim is very strong but slow and has NO reversal to wake-up attack with. Good all around almost as good as Chun Li that way.
Boxer’s super not so good?? It’s the best one in the entire game. throw him out of it?? yeah good luck with THAT strategy. Boxer is extremely strong, and his wakeup move does him just fine. However you can outguess the player but you’ve got to do it really well. Facing him on hdr speed or online it gets even trickier esp with dp characters. Chun Li is powerful esp when you have her beat by almost half her lifebar, but you know you can’t rest because in a couple seconds, two fast walk up throws can win her the round.
Totally agreed about ST’s longevity. When Alpha 1 came out people were all like why do you want to play that old game?
“WAIT everyone STOP, STOP the tournament from starting, Thao wants to practice Sagat’s dp first, he gets to do that because it was so powerful in ST and he needs to adjust!”
btw here are much better videos for Execution Aid in more practical use: first one is Giga’s Zangief tutorial for 360 motions (thanks VF4 for re-uploading this one), and etotheng’s CPS1 chain combo tutorial:
[media=youtube]HP4nDOQHVzY[/media]
[media=youtube]0WzU3IXDOT0[/media]
Sagat has the second shortest throw range in ST. Boxer, Dictator, Blanka, Chun, Dhalsim, and the grapplers can reliably tick Sagat out of throw range so that he has to reversal uppercut the throw. If you know that your opponent will reverse then you just bait and punish the uppercut with something that knocks down. If you think that your opponent will block, then you throw. Or you simply commit to throwing no matter what and see how well your opponent’s execution is. Or you tick and then block and see what your opponent does.
If he uppercuts, and the reversal message comes out, you know he is on point so you might try throwing less. An uppercut without a reversal message means he might be off that day with his execution, so going for a throw is likely less risky. A whiffed punch normal means he failed to uppercut or tried to throw out of range, both lose to a throw. A whiffed kick normal means he either guessed that you’d block and he wants to push you away or he wasn’t aware of the threat of a throw. And if he simply blocks, it means he either froze, or predicated that you would try to bait him into reversing.
I can’t believe that you’re complaining about O.Sagat when you use Dhalsim, who is generally considered to be a better character than O.Sagat. I’ve seen more people rate Dhalsim as the best character in the game than I have O.Sagat (Claw as well).