I meant hit adv.^^ it yields 6F hit adv but you can combo into 7F c.hk.<br>
And yeah, it’s rapid cancelable, but then you couldn’t cancel the 2nd c.lp by srk.<br>
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That would be true if rapid cancels worked the exact same way as in SF4. See the way it works is this, chain cancelable light attacks in SF4 are actually not canceling into the same move. When you chain cancel a s.LP into another s.LP in SF4 you are actually cancel into a new move called R5LP (the R stands for rapid, the 5 is neutral e.g. standing position) the R5LP is identical to the normal 5LP EXCEPT they change what you are able to cancel into from the move. <br><br>in SFxT however, there are no “R” moves (except for Cody’s s.LP with
knife AFAIK) Ken is chain canceling his 2LP into his 2LP so it retains
the same properties as if he linked it instead of chained it. <br><br>I’ll look into the other stuff later.<br><br>(P.S. Something to check to see if they fixed: in 1.06 Cody’s s.LP with knife does 40 damage properly, however if you rapid cancel it into itself the chained version is 30 damage BEFORE damage scaling. This doesn’t apply to his c.LP with knife only s.LP)<br>
I meant hit adv.^^ it yields 6F hit adv but you can combo into 7F c.hk.<br>
And yeah, it’s rapid cancelable, but then you couldn’t cancel the 2nd c.lp by srk.<br>
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That would be true if rapid cancels worked the exact same way as in SF4. See the way it works is this, chain cancelable light attacks in SF4 are actually not canceling into the same move. When you chain cancel a s.LP into another s.LP in SF4 you are actually cancel into a new move called R5LP (the R stands for rapid, the 5 is neutral e.g. standing position) the R5LP is identical to the normal 5LP EXCEPT they change what you are able to cancel into from the move. <br><br>in SFxT however, there are no “R” moves (except for Cody’s s.LP with
knife AFAIK) Ken is chain canceling his 2LP into his 2LP so it retains
the same properties as if he linked it instead of chained it. <br><br>I’ll look into the other stuff later.<br><br><br></div>
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That makes sense, but if I mash the c.lp and try to mash srk into it, it doesn’t cancel. only when I properly “link” it, I can do that. And what about Cody’s Knife c.hp +6 hit adv => c.hk 7F start up? (see video above). Or Lars’s cl.lp (+6 hitadv), c.mp (7F start up) LINKED (I can special cancel it and the damage also is 30,60, not 30,42 like for chain combos)?<br><br>
Yes. It is move specific for sure. I thought it didn’t happen with normals, but Lars’ cl.st.LP proved me wrong.<br><br>I recorded the frames with Fraps and this is what I got (top one is cr.HK, the same one I saw in your video, middle one is cr.MK, bottom one is Knife cr.MP)<br><br>[details=Spoiler]<img src=“http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9873/0285c.jpg”><br><img src=“http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8748/0552p.jpg”><br><img src=“http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/6889/0783t.jpg”><br>[/details]<br><br>They’re all different, giving the idea that they’re all unique motions belonging to their corresponding normals. It doesn’t show the key input until next frame, but I think it was always like that. Hopefully this is enough proof about what we were talking about all this time.<br>
I think that is the extra frame of animation I spoke off. Try to reversal time EX Zonk for instance. (if it happens, doesn’t all the time).<br><br>I think Knife c.hp has to be the reason, but we don’t know why exactly, since every move afterwards connect. It would be interesting to see how a 8F move reacts, if he is in blocks animation on the 7th or 8th frame, or we could try a 7F move that is done with a different timing. We could macro that on pc to have exact frame inputs.<br><br>Btw, now I can’t unsee Cody giving himself a blowjob. ._.
@Eternal<br>Good point, but I’m afraid that is not the case.
Physically in game, I tried it more than 10 times, and when he rapid
cancels into a light, you cannot cancel that into a special; just boost
combos or EX special or above.<br><br>I just tried digging through
Pandora dumps again, then I found out Ken has a different name of that
rapid version, called BC_2LP (probably stands for boost combo).<br><br><br>@zUkUu<br>I found a problem with Fraps. My computer is not the best one, so it usually doesn’t keep the 60fps through the whole time (sometimes goes down to 56~59). Therefore, the program just jams in extra frames to make it 60fps. I compared 2 cr.MKs, and one of them is actually 1f longer than the other. I don’t think my comp is fit for recording and checking stuff.<br>I recorded close st.MP 3 times and the frames seem to be consistent, so I’ll be using this.<br><br>EDIT: Now about cr.HK taking 8 frames for hit animation to occur, I would have to use SSF4 example with Gouken proximity in those hitbox videos:<br>- In SSF4, Gouken’s cr.HK is, of course, 6f start-up. At the 6th frame, the move shows active frame (red rectangular bar), and at the 7th frame, hit animation occurs, and from 7th to 18th frame (so for 12 frames), Gouken does not move due to hitfreeze.<br>- In SFxT, Cody’s cl.st.MP is 6f start-up. At the 1st frame, the “animation” you were talking about happens. At the 7th frame, hit/block animation occurs, and from 8th to 17th frame (for 10 frames), Cody does not move due to hitfreeze/blockfreeze.<br>- Assuming SFxT did not change this, we’ll have to take into account that it takes an extra frame for hit animation, and that the weird animation is actually the 1st start-up frame.<br><br>I cannot unsee it either. Dammit.<br><br>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/16564/street11">street11</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>@Eternal<br>Good point, but I’m afraid that is not the case.
Physically in game, I tried it more than 10 times, and when he rapid
cancels into a light, you cannot cancel that into a special; just boost
combos or EX special or above.<br><br>I just tried digging through
Pandora dumps again, then I found out Ken has a different name of that
rapid version, called BC_2LP (probably stands for boost combo).<br><br><br>@zUkUu<br>I found a problem with Fraps. My computer is not the best one, so it usually doesn’t keep the 60fps through the whole time (sometimes goes down to 56~59). Therefore, the program just jams in extra frames to make it 60fps. I compared 2 cr.MKs, and one of them is actually 1f longer than the other. I don’t think my comp is fit for recording and checking stuff.<br>I recorded close st.MP 3 times and the frames seem to be consistent, so I’ll be using this.<br></div>
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That doesn’t have to be necessarily your computer. As I said, extra frame of animations are quite often. It depends when the input appears. So that 1F longer c.mk has its input 1F afterwards right? Also, try to record half-size (but 60fps) or turn down the graphic. or use game-booster or something^^<br><br>I think that trait might not be unique to normals tho. LP Bad Stone => Cross Art linked as well (+8 hit adv, 9F start up).<br><br>Edit:<br>Btw, what do you think of this order?<br>Sakura<br>Bryan<br>Guy<br>Jack<br>Elena<br>Christie<br>Lei (recheck + filling out the missing stuff)<br><br>Edit 2: Stop ninja editing your previous posts all the time! xD [okay I do it all the time as well ._.]<br><br>That “hit” frame without “hit effect” is part of the normal c.hk animation, and I think universal to all moves. I do mean that it hits on the 8th frame of hit adv (so the 2nd frame where cody could block, or 1F later as he currently can combo into.) that has to be macroed tho.<br><br><br>
<br><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteText”><a href="/profile/17033/zUkUu">zUkUu</a> said:That doesn’t have to be necessarily your computer. As I said, extra frame of animations are quite often. It depends when the input appears. So that 1F longer c.mk has its input 1F afterwards right? Also, try to record half-size (but 60fps) or turn down the graphic. or use game-booster or something^^<br><br>I think that trait might not be unique to normals tho. LP Bad Stone => Cross Art linked as well (+8 hit adv, 9F start up).<br><br><br></div>
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No, there’s a “frozen frame” during start-up, like the 4th start-up frame or something. One cr.MK has it, the other cr.MK doesn’t, so the first one just looks like it has 1f longer start-up. I think it’s just a framerate problem. I did everything I could to make it run as smooth as possible, so I’ve got a feeling it’s just my laptop :(<br><br>Another ninja EDIT!: I’m completely okay with any order.<br>Actually, I was saying that the “hit frame” you’re talking about is indeed a part of the animation. I was just saying that the frame in which the opponent who is getting hit by the move “flinches” is the 1st frame of “hitfreeze”, and is, in fact, not the 1st active frame. Of course, it’ll be much better if it could be tested more extensively like you said, because I can only explain this with SSF4 examples and not SFxT ones.<br>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/16564/street11">street11</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”><br><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteText”><a href="/profile/17033/zUkUu">zUkUu</a> said:That doesn’t have to be necessarily your computer. As I said, extra frame of animations are quite often. It depends when the input appears. So that 1F longer c.mk has its input 1F afterwards right? Also, try to record half-size (but 60fps) or turn down the graphic. or use game-booster or something^^<br><br>I think that trait might not be unique to normals tho. LP Bad Stone => Cross Art linked as well (+8 hit adv, 9F start up).<br><br><br></div>
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No, there’s a “frozen frame” during start-up, like the 4th start-up frame or something. One cr.MK has it, the other cr.MK doesn’t, so the first one just looks like it has 1f longer start-up. I think it’s just a framerate problem. I did everything I could to make it run as smooth as possible, so I’ve got a feeling it’s just my laptop :(<br></div>
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You mean you have an IDENTICAL frame? Because I see that sometimes as well. Thought it was my recording software or my hauppauge tho; but it occurs very rare to begin with.<br>
Yea, I have an identical frame. It happens more often when my framerate during recording drops to around 55.<br><br>Well, I do know you’re recording console version, so it might be a different problem from PC version.<br><br>BTW, I’ll try EX Zonk.<br><br>EDIT: Okay. I found out how to take out those identical frames aka “fillings”. With Fraps record, everything is a keyframe except for the ones that was simply copy pasted to make it 60fps.<br><br>EDIT2: Zonk and EX Zonk have 17f start-up!? They CH Paul’s Phoenix Smasher and trade with Ryu’s MK Joudan when done from 0 frame advantage. I’m getting all kinds of weird results right now, so I’ll take a break to calm myself down a lil.<br>
<a href="/profile/16564/street11">street11</a> said:<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Yea, I have an identical frame. It happens more often when my framerate during recording drops to around 55.<br><br>Well, I do know you’re recording console version, so it might be a different problem from PC version.<br><br>BTW, I’ll try EX Zonk.<br><br>EDIT: Okay. I found out how to take out those identical frames aka “fillings”. With Fraps record, everything is a keyframe except for the ones that was simply copy pasted to make it 60fps.<br><br>EDIT2: Zonk and EX Zonk have 17f start-up!? They CH Paul’s Phoenix Smasher and trade with Ryu’s MK Joudan when done from 0 frame advantage.<br></div>
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But don’t they trade due to the strike invincibility? Try to frame count Zonk. I often get that weird frame, in particular for reversal timing. Again, doesn’t happen all the time tho.<br><br>You have me confused now.<br>
I’ll try to frame count Zonk after getting rid of all the weird frames.<br><br><br>Ah okay. I think I wasn’t able to clearly state what I was trying to say. My apologies. Here is what I’m saying:<br><br>1st frame of start up<br>2nd frame of start up <- shows button input in training mode. If you’re doing st.MP, MP button will show up in this frame.<br>3rd<br>4th<br>5th<br>6th <- first active frame<br>7th hit occurs (cody’s portraits bobbles, he flinches backwards) <- first frame of hitfreeze; if you block the move, block effect occurs here<br>8th frame, hit effect occurs <- it’s just that it shows an effect and have no significance in frame data<br>…<br>16th last frame of hitfreeze (for most medium strength normals, since they have 10f of hitfreeze)<br>17th the attacker moves again and goes ahead with the remaining active and recovery frames<br><br>Now, it might sound weird that the “input” is shown at the 2nd frame, but I was able to find this out by doing a jump. Cody goes into the 2nd pre-jump frame when the input is shown on the screen according to the recording I did:<br>[details=Spoiler]<br><img src=“http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9579/0000xq.jpg”><br>^Just a neutral stance<br><br><img src=“http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/760/0001rqz.jpg”><br>^1st frame of pre-jump<br><br><img src=“img855.imageshack.us/img855/7620/0002iwc.jpg”><img src=“http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/7620/0002iwc.jpg”><br>^2nd frame of pre-jump, “up” direction input is shown here<br><br><img src=“http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6972/0003qz.jpg”><br>^3rd frame of pre-jump<br><br><img src=“http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6456/0004yey.jpg”><br>^4th (last) frame of pre-jump<br><br><img src=“http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/504/0005gx.jpg”><br>^5th Cody goes airborne<br>[/details]<br><br>I hope this will be easier to understand.<br>
Okay, after an intense private <strike>therapy session</strike> discussion, Street11 and me think it is indeed the case that you cancel the last recovery frame by another move. c.hk-Cody appears to have a different animation to jump-cody 1F prior to his first jump frame. That also would explain, why the other normals (c.mk, knife c.mp) have all different frames: it’s the first start up frame.<br>We’ll have to see if you can cancel that last frame not only by another normal but also by a special / super / cross art or by blocking, manual jumping on frame perfect (so not holding “up”).<br>
<font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>Shit… You guys are finding some interesting stuff. Keep it up. </span></font> =D>
A couple of notes on Yoshimitsu.<div><br></div><div>- Super is 7 frames not 6, I can’t seem to punish moves that are -6 on block nor combo into moves that are +6 on hit.</div><div>- His MP suicide doesn’t seem to have any invincibility, doesn’t seem to strike low, high or aerial attacks.</div><div><br></div><div>On Paul</div><div><br></div><div>- Ex shredder kicks doesn’t whiff on crouchers.</div>
Important note:<br><br>Yoshimitsu’s MP sucide move is not strike invincible. <br>Yoshimitsu’s EX suicide can hit juggled and airborne opponents now<br><br><br>
Okay, so it looks like there was a mistranslation. I looked at the Japanese log, and it says it “ignores counter moves” (probably something like Asuka’s counter, Juri’s shit, etc.). I changed it accordingly. It was never strike invincible in the first place.<br><br>Super will be tested when possible. It was straight from Brady Guide so idk the exact info.<br>
I can confirm 3 cases of link canceling. 2 with Jin, and 1 with Akuma. If I’m correct, 0 Frame links is when the start-up of one move is the same as the advantage given by another. If this is true then Jin has two with one resulting in a normal linked string, and another in a block string. His is:<div><br></div><div>cr.MP, Far st.MP-If you plink it on those last frames of crMP the far st.MP will come out, and continue the combo. +9 frame advantage, 9 start-up for far st MP.</div><div><br></div><div>blockstring- cr.mp, cr.HPxxSS Uppercut- At first I thought this was either a true blockstring, or me going crazy when I posted it in the Jin forums(which prompted me into questioning how much frame advantage cr.mp gave on block). Sure enough, the advantage on block was +5 so I dismissed it being a true blockstring. But what I couldn’t understand was why I could never get a mashed DP out when I did the string. This link-canceling would explain it as cr.HP is 5 frames, and anytime I did the blocksting correctly I was unable to get a reversal DP until after the SS Uppercut which resulted in a punish.</div><div><br></div><div>For Akuma:</div><div><br></div><div>cr.MP, cr.HP- this was another strange one as I was looking for a way to get a consist combo to stand an opponent up so I could combo into tatsu. Sure enough, the link works. cr.MP gives +6 advantage, and cr.HP is 6 frame Start-up.</div>
@link-cancel<br>It <b>seems </b>that you can NOT cancel it by:<br>-Perfect Frame Jump<br>-Dash<br>-Block<br>-Launcher<br>-Throw<br><br>You CAN cancel it by<br>-a Normal<br>-Tag (no meter)<br>-Super Art<br>-Cross Art<br><br>And I am correct in that you can link-cancel Special Moves as well. All versions of Bad Stone for instance.<br>LP Bad Stone (+8) ,x Cross Art (9F start up [did you confirm this?])<br>MP Bad Stone (+6) ,x c.hk (7F start up)<br>EX Bad Stone (+11) ,x MK Ruffian (12F start up) <br><br>Edit:<br><blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href=“http://forums.shoryuken.com/profile/19099/Dodeka”>Dodeka</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>If I’m correct, 0 Frame links is when the
start-up of one move is the same as the advantage given by another.<br></div></blockquote>That is a 1F link and possible without link-canceling. E.G: Cody’s cl.mp is +8 on hit and f.mp has 8F start up, which combos.<br>Technically, a 0F link is if a move has +5F hit advantage and you try to combo a 6F start up move (which is not possible).<br>
Nope, link cancelling creates a situation in which an 1 frame link (actually, we consider +9 frame advantage link into a 9f start-up move as an 1 frame link) becomes a 2 frame link and a link that is impossible by 1 frame difference (trying to link a 10f start-up move after a move with +9 advantage), becomes possible. Only a few moves have the ability to do this.<br><br>I’m surprised that you cannot cancel the last frame with launcher and throw.<br>
ah, okay. Yea haven’t messed with frames in awhile that explains it. So those one-frames are two frame links instead which is even better then a thought with link-canceling.
