Perhaps it would be possible to make it impossible to tag cancel a reversal DP? Assuming that the cancel system in the game is the same as in SF4’s (going by the Ono modding tool for SF4 PC), reversals have their own cancel list. And it seems that they already have a property for moves that you can’t tag cancel (throws, super arts, cross arts) in SF X TK, so it may be possible to make a separate “move” for reversals you don’t want to give the ability to tag cancel. E.g, in SF4, it’s possible to mod a separate DP for reversals than one you did as a non-reversal, removing the ability to cancel the reversal version. The mod tool shows that there are cancel lists for standing, crouching, and reversals, as well as jumping. Replacing the normal DP in the reversal cancel list will have you perform the regular DP that can be FADC’d when done from standing or crouching or when cancelled into from another move, however when you perform it as a reversal, you get the reversal version that cannot be FADC’d. So, in SF X TK’s case, you can tag cancel a normal DP (like in combos or as an AA), but if you perform it as a reversal, you won’t be able to tag cancel it. Though I do think that EX DPs should be able to be tag cancelled, considering the meter cost.
I really wish we had some kind of Ono tool for SF X TK, that way we could implement some of these changes to see how they affect the game in practice, as well as some character adjustments. Essentially test a new build of the game, so we can better determine the character adjustments that could be made, as well as perhaps other changes to suggest to Capcom.
This doesn’t remove the ability to tag cancel all reversals, you can pick and choose which ones you want to be able to tag cancel and which ones you don’t. So in SF4, you can replace LP DP, MP DP, and HP DP in the reversal cancel list with new versions of each DP that are identical, just without the ability to cancel them (you can also make it possible to super cancel it but not FADC it among other things).
So you could, in theory (keep in mind as I mentioned before I’m assuming the cancel system between SF4 and SF X TK are the same) make it so Ryu cannot tag cancel his regular DPs if done as a reversal, but you can still tag cancel EX DP or his alpha counter, reversal or not, and of course still be able to tag the non-ex DPs if done as a non-reversal.
–Elena–
Generally, Elena’s in a good spot, though a few recommendations
-Either Improved Damage on Spin Scythe (25/20 to 30/25 at minimum) or Make it a true block string that can’t be raw launched out of.
-Give a use for HK Rhino Horn - right now, it has no use. Even it’s as simple as much as making it hit crouchers where LK and MK can’t, or maybe make it comboable after EX Lynx Tail/Spin Scythe
-Make cr.MK special cancellable - One of her longest pokes and it really doesn’t do much beyond just being a nuisance into boost combos and in that regard, st.mk is better.
–Chun-Li–
Just needs some tweaking so she isn’t the safe monster that she is.
-Make Legs either less safe (0 or +1 on block for MK and HK legs mashed), or give meter for every hit blocked as opposed to just one hit’s worth
-Maybe increase the start up of st.MP
–Paul–
Overall good damage. Just a few minor improvements
-Hit confirmable low attack (ie. making cr.LK +4 on hit and make one of his LPs 4f start up. This might be a bit much considering the power house that Paul is, but without it, he’ll never ascend higher than upper mid in my mind. If damage is slightly toned down in exchange for this, I would probably be fine with it)
-If not a confirmable low attack, then give him some sort of mix up tool (command grab a la Takuma from KOF13, then again I didn’t play Paul in Tekken so this might be a betrayal of his character)
–Asuka–
Good partner. Just needs improvement on neutral moves, though I’m not exactly sure how.
-Increasing horizontal hit box of st.LP is a good start. Maybe make is special cancellable too, but that just wishful thinking.
–Vega–
-Make his Overhead comboable from against crouchers.
-Make his cr.lp a 2 frame link again. (Not necessary but it’s nice)
–Sakura–
She needs a overall damage buff I think
-Increase Shunpunkyaku damage up by 10-20 (LK does 50-60, MK does 40-50x2, HK does 40-50 x3, EX does 30-40x3+40-50)
Those are the modest changes I think should happen.
Yun/Yang - WHy not? They’re juggle machines as it is. Though whether or not they’d have their supers or one of their ultras is hard to say.
Makoto/Fei-Long - Both are pretty fun and high demanded characters. Makoto could have Abare Tosanami can it’d be a special super that can be combo’d from.
I don’t believe this has been mentioned yet, but I think Heihachi needs some input adjustments. For example:
-Due to the input shortcuts, and being able to get a hcf motion by just doing db, f, attempting to do Hei’s f.lk from a defensive crouch results in counter coming out. Make the input for Hei’s counter a bit more strict (e.g. requiring db, d, df, f rather than simply db, f) should fix this.
-Hei’s counter also seems to have input priority over his DP. I’ve had several occasions where I try to do an EX DP to get out of a blockstring from a defensive crouch (which would also hit a jump-over attempt) and get EX counter instead.*
There’s also the weird input problem with throws; you hold forward, your opponent rolls behind you, so you’re holding back, you input the throw at that point, and you still get forward throw. But I believe that has been mentioned already.
*This may be due to my inputs not being the cleanest, but considering how many times it’s happened to me, I don’t think that’s entirely the case. If someone could test if counter truly does have priority over his DP, that’d be great.
I often read that giving her a neutral game would make her pretty damn good. But personally I agree with giving her at least a better jab.
Lately I play Sakura pretty often and I don’t think she is supposed to be a solo combo monster. Cl. hp xx lk tatsu cl. hp xx launcher or hp uppercut can net you decent damage depending on the partner already.
Oh I forgot to add that throw issue. I always get Akuma’s back throw when I actually want to throw my opponent into the corner.
Decrease the buffer window. Inputs stay in the buffer way to long. It makes something as simple as stepping forward and doing a special stupidly inconsistent because the buffer might interpret that as a DP.
Likewise, lessen the amount of acceptable input shortcuts for a similar reason.
That doesn’t completely solve the issue. What if it wasn’t done with reversal timing? As in, say there was a 2 frame gap, and you hit the second frame. Then you could still cancel it. This would make DP>tag in consistent, and this type of thing needs to be consistent.
I can see your point. Another solution, though I’m not sure if it’s possible in the context of the game engine (though since it’s a modified SF4 engine it could still be possible) is make it so that DPs (or any true invincible meterless reversal) instantly scales the rest of the combo. Basically, make invincible reversals count as more than one move, kind of like Ultras and focus attacks in SF4 (though rather than only being scaled by two moves perhaps make it scale by 5+). So if you get hit by the invincible DP, you can still tag it to get your partner in (so if your opponent is doing predictable blockstrings you can blow him up for that and get out), but the follow-up combo won’t end up doing 40-50%; depending on how harsh you want to scale it you can make it do only like 10-15%, maybe less.
Though with this method, since you’d still be able to tag cancel reversal DPs, it would need the adjustment to DP tag on block. Perhaps remove the ability to tag cancel invincible reversals on block?
The problem with this method is when it comes to certain DP AAs. A lot of invincible DPs (Ken’s, Ryu’s, Cammy’s, etc.) are also used as AAs, and if you implement this change, doing AA DP xx tag will end up doing a lot less damage as well. Though I suppose you could simply make those DPs air crush rather than having full invincibility, so you don’t have to give it the harsh scaling since it won’t be an invincible reversal anymore.
I don’t see how this is that complicated though. 3 different DPs for 3 different situations…it seems pretty simple to me. It’s like minecraft tools; axe for trees, pick for stone, sword for killing mobs. With TNT being your EX DP, doing all of the above, but with a higher cost.
…not the best analogy I guess but it’s the best I could think of on short notice.
Oh, I see what you mean. That still doesn’t seem that complicated to me…at least not in the context of how the harsher scaling would work in this engine, with the single move counting as more than one move. Then again…I have a greater understanding of how damage scaling/damage proration systems work since I built one of my own…
Still, even if it is a more complicated way of doing it, it does seem the best way of going about it if you want to limit the effectiveness of DP mashing. Though that does beg the question…how would this be balanced? Obviously some DPs are more effective than others for reversals. Would the less effective DPs have less damage proration on them? Or would the less useful DPs get buffed?
It should be the same across the board I think. Unless they implemented a full proration system… Which might be overboard for this type of game anyways.
That’s true. It certainly seems possible to give different moves different scaling values in this engine though, but that’s probably unnecessary. Giving invincible reversals the same higher move count across the board would probably be the easiest way.
Though I suppose there’s also the issue of reversals that are invincible, but only partially. I think the best example would be Heihachi’s counter; it can lead to a full combo, and you can mash it during blockstrings, but it loses to certain attacks (similar with Steve’s counter though it’s a lot harder to land and you have to have a bar to combo off of it). Would these type of reversals be left alone, having the focus of the harsher scaling put on true invincible reversals?
I suppose Jack-X’s DP is another odd case, since while it is technically fully invincible it loses to raw launch and projectile invincible attacks…
Blocked DPs should have 5 less blockstun across the board. That should solve the DP tag issue. Also DPs do deserve their damage output considering their risk (Once they make it easier to punish). After a DP tag, both characters will get hit by a full combo.
I also agree with everyone that says that ACs (CCs) should become more universal across the board in terms of 2 things:
Being able to actually hit:
a. Making the animations something that works or by adjusting the hitboxes.
b. Having them all require one hit to get its full damage and hard knockdown.
c. Making them fast enough so they actually could hit instead of getting blocked (Such as 7 frames).
Allowing a safe tag which is its main use.
Also, what’s wrong with making universal mechanics work like they are supposed to? What if grabs were different for every character? What if certain characters had 18 frame grabs or grabs that don’t work on crouch blocking opponents just for the sake of “variety”? ACs should have the same startup and functional properties (allowing the safe tag), just like how all grabs have similar startup and grab boxes that allow them to grab the opponent in front of them when they block.
However just like grabs also have different perks depending on the characters should ACs as well. Grabs have different damage output and create different setups much like ACs should do.
Speaking about universal mechanics:
Launchers should all be a 13 frame startup. Theres no reason for Cody and Kuma to have 12 frame launchers.
