Street Fighter X Tekken Match Critique Thread

[Vulcan_Hades]

I guess if you’re whiffing completely outside the range of all of your opponent’s pokes then there’s no risk, but there’s also no potential for reward since they wouldn’t be close enough to walk into the button or stick a normal into yours, getting counter poked. The only thing that can possibly come from this is potentally getting preemptively jumped on.

I completely disagree. Jumping is only one mid-range option and it’s the most unsafe one. You’re basically saying that the only or most probable thing that can happen to me at that specific range is me getting randomly jumped on while I throw a huge random poke with massive recovery. Which sounds a little silly to me. Jumping is often a player’s last resort at getting in dat sweet pressure range. But smarter players will use a variety of advancing manoeuvers to try and close the distance. This can be a dash/wavedash, a slide type move, a lunge punch, tackle or overhead. Or something like Gief’s Green Hand or Rog’s Dash Punch. These are all mid-range options used to close distance that get effectively blown up by a buffered standing/crouching short. And if they do jump on me, I still recover fast enough to cross-cancel or at least block in time. So I don’t really see the risk there. I’m not throwing a standing roundhouse I’m throwing a standing short.

imo it depends a lot more on the character you’re fighting against than the player. The spacing and pokes you use to buffer will differ depending on the character’s… “attack vectors” (omg James Chen jargon :D).

Maybe I’m just thinking a bit differently though because I don’t really play Ryu lol. I play Yoshi, a character who doesn’t have the best pokes in the world so I’m not looking to play the up close footsie war against someone like Julia. Or rather, I have to play footsies differently at a different range using different tactics. But it’s the same universal concept and it’s just as effective and has the advantage of being a much safer way of fishing.

I will agree that not everyone is able to whiff punish on reaction though. And that fishing/buffering is a risky tactic if you’re going to use it up close at a range where you can get whiff punished or get your poke blocked. I can agree with that. But the way you phrased it:

Make sure if you gonna just whiff normals and buffer them into fireball, launch, whatever that you’re playing someone that can’t see that.

To me sounded like you were saying it’s a tech that only works against bad/uneducated players because any good player will always whiff punish you. Which is far from being true. And like you said yourself a considerable portion of the cast would not even have the normals required to reach that far in time.

[Bunnycap]

I may need a quick up-to-speed on frame data. Thank you for the critique!

Basic frame data guide for newbies

What are frames anyway? Ever created or even seen a flipbook animation? If you have, then you already understand the concept. The technical details don’t really matter. If Ryu is a character in your flip book animation, then the pages would be the frames. You can think of fighting games as flip book animations that (usually) run at 60 frames (or “pages”) per second. But fighting games are more complex than flipbook animations! The key is to only concentrate on the entities in the game that af…

As for your game play.
-Learn your frame traps
-Learn how to bait reversals from said frame traps
-learn how to hit confirm off your frame traps(Once you get a feel for your character more you might start to develop autopilot habits and will continue the pressure without confirming the hit you just got. That is unsafe and lazy)

• Learn how to punish rolls
  -Basic high damage(50-60%) punish combo for when they do do something stupid.
  -Keep playing and having fun, the most important one imo.

[Vegaman]

I’m going to come at this from the same logic that you’re using. The reason you say to whiff normals in the first place is because the opponent might walk into them or press a button into them getting your buffer to come out. So if you’re doing that your opponent has to be close enough to walk into them in the first place. If they’re close enough to walk into it, they’re geometrically close enough to hit your normal in its recovery. I guess if you’re whiffing completely outside the range of all of your opponent’s pokes then there’s no risk, but there’s also no potential for reward since they wouldn’t be close enough to walk into the button or stick a normal into yours, getting counter poked. The only thing that can possibly come from this is potentally getting preemptively jumped on.

So, assuming you’re whiffing normals that are actually in the range where they can do any good, then yes against any player who has practiced whiff punishing that is a huge risk. Cody’s light kick is honestly a big exception because it comes out so fast and recovers so quickly. Also in that set in particular, Julia doesn’t have anything to poke back at that’s that fast and far to catch Cody’s standing forward right outside of max distance, and Julia’s crouching light kick is similar to Cody’s in that it comes out faster and is out for much less time than Ryu’s low forward. To put it in perspective, Ryu’s low forward has a total of 26 active frames (5/5/16), so the full animation is longer than the startup of say, Xiaoyu’s Cyanide which can be blocked every time unless you’re pressing buttons. Julia’s low short on the other hand has, only 19 active frames (5/4/10). Similar to Chun Li’s light Hazanshu in AE which should be blocked almost every time, but it’s a lot easier to slip up on that if you’re not looking for that animation.

Also about the CADCs, depends on who you play. If you’ve seen Ricky Ortiz play PR Balrog, he punishes CADCs consistently from PR Rog’s Ryu. Perhaps he might be mashing low short, but he’s not getting counter hit by the frame traps, and it’s a 2 frame punish for sweep and much larger for low forward so it’s perfectly doable. And I’m sure everyone’s seen Daigo and XSK Samurai consistently whiff punish low forwards from other Ryu’s in AE well over 3/4 of the time. You can tell it’s on reaction, because their character will literally stand still right outside of the low forward to make sure their hurt box is thinner than when crouching and then sweep. Since we’re using Tokido as an example, he actually does that exact same thing against opposing Ryu’s with his Akuma’s sweep, though I will say he does fish for that much more than he legitimately whiff punishes. Everyone can’t do it on reaction though, and that’s my point. If you watch that SCR set from 2010 I think with Daigo vs Valle you can clearly see that Valle’s sweeps were random and Daigo’s were on reaction. If you want to whiff your normals, and play the ‘fishing’ style of poking then by all means do it. But make sure it’s against a player (or character since I guess I should have said that before) that cannot consistently punish your whiffed buttons.

tldr but did read the first couple sentences…

whiffing normals is meant as a means to control space. You’re telling the opponent (hey, this area is my area… get inside this area you you’re gonna eat a combo). This makes it easier to force the opponent into the corner. Mixing up normals you whiff with also serves a dual purpose. It makes the opponent hesitant to try to whiff punish your poke, and it makes it easier to condition and bait the opponent into attempting to punish a normal they themselves miss punishing leaving them wide open. This includes baiting jumps because for some stupid reason 95% of online players wanna try to jump over pokes instead of playing footsies. If you use a fast poke you can recover in time to anti air them. Of if you have a weak opponent cornered but is all antsy and ready to react fast you can whiff a cLK or cLP to bait out that reversal so they have to either use meter to bring in the partner or take the damage.

I’d like to note how apeshit I went on the double mashing, for some reason I couldn’t get anything to work against him without having to at least double input it. Save for the combos, even then I doubled the special attacks.

all of your problems can be summed up in the advice that is always applicable

-Block more
-Think more

Look at how much damage you took from not blocking… or more specifically, pressing buttons. Now imagine how well you’d do with all that extra health. Also… you still have autopilot on. Turn that shit off and start thinkin about what your opponent is doing, and is trying to do. Pay attention to what he likes to do in certain situations.

Press buttons only when you need to press buttons. Every button press is a risk. Yeah there’s always the risk of getting thrown, but throws do less damage than combos. Play smart and take the safer route until you learn how and when to take risks.

This is where playing to learn will get you further in the end than always playing to win. If you focus on winning then you’re missing a lot of the important things that you need to develop and practice. Every movement, every button press, every selection of moves in a combo should have a specific reason for doing it. dont get caught up in the trap of “trying to make it work.” It’s one thing to go and test a theory to see how the opponent responds (like the whiffing normal example above to see if the opponent is antsy) but it’s another if it’s out of desperation.

Here’s an example: Why did you launcher at 19 sec? Did you guess that he was going to use a low move or was it a read where you knew he was probably going to go low? If it was a read, what did he do that told you doing a raw launcher was a good idea?

Or at 50 sec why are you running away from the opponent when he has the life lead? You’re giving up a ton of space for no work at all putting yourself almost into the corner.

Stuff like that is what you need to be working on first. Most every other problem will resolve itself once you start blocking more and thinking more.

Just as a side note… Don’t misunderstand me thinking that I’m saying something to the effect that you are incapable of thinking or that you’re stupid. That’s not what I’m saying at all. It’s not meant as an insult… it’s meant as good advice that will make you play at a level where you should be playing at instead of the level you’re playing at now.

and holy shit at my wall o text

[silph]

This thread is a great idea because one of the things my game is lacking is damage optimization. This was my most recent one. Thanks in advance.

[media=youtube]osxKTUiEJuY[/media]

NOTES:
My buttons are crapping out (notably my forward) so I had to triple tap a few things. On round 2, finger slipped to roundhouse resulting in an ex pinwheel. Meant to do low forward into hk pinwheel cancel to Bison and end the match. So that was an accident from multi-tapping.

I dropped a few combos, that was my fault.
I need to break the habit of doing crouch mk instead of stand fp into pinwheel on juri’s jump cancel. That’s my fault.

0:23
Combo used:
Bison (hit confirm): cr. LK, cr. LK xx st. HK xx Launcher -
Juri (juggle): cr. HP [whiff]
Had Juri’s juggle been completed the combo would have yielded -
315 DMG

Optimal:
Bison (hit confirm): cr. LK, (link) cr. MK xx st. HK xx Launcher -
Juri (juggle): cr. HP, jf. HP (land/pause) st. HP xx LK Pinwheel
345 DMG

0:40
Combo used:
Juri (hit confirm): HK Shikusen (land) [whiff]
(Assuming c. MK xx LK Pinwheel) Had the combo been completed it would have yielded -
180 DMG

This is a common drop among developing Juri players. 180 is indeed the most meterless damage to be gained from this situation, but here is some advice to make sure you don’t drop this combo again:

If Shikusen strikes your opponent in the chest or above, c. MK xx Pinwheel will work just fine. However, the lower the hit connects the more awkward it becomes. In some situations Juri can walk forward slightly and connect the c. MK. In others, it is either impossible or prohibitively difficult to connect it at all. To remedy this, use st. MP xx Pinwheel instead. Note that using st. MP, you will need to charge the Pinwheel for a brief moment to allow both hits to connect. It is not necessary to walk forward using this method in any situation and works reliably no matter how high or low Shikusen connects.

That said, in this situation I feel the best decision would have been to use this opportunity to bring in Bison. Here is the optimal way to do so:

Juri (hit confirm): HK Shikusen (land) st. MP xx MK Pinwheel (slight delay before release) xx Tag
Bison (juggle): j. HP (land) st. HP xx HP Psycho Crusher
390 DMG
1M

Bison actually has fancier combo options than this but they are too height and distance dependant to be reliable.

1:07
Combo used:
Juri (hit confirm): CH j. MK (land) c. MK xx Super
398 DMG
2M

This was a horrible decision. Juri was nearly dead. Your goal at that point in the match should have been to get her out and this was your opportunity. You also wasted alot of meter in the process.

Optimal combo:
Juri (hit confirm): CH j. MK (land) st. MP xx MK Pinwheel (slight delay before release) xx Tag
Bison (juggle): j. HP (land) st. HP xx HP Psycho Crusher
498 DMG
1M

1:35
Combo used:
Bison (PUNISH): st. LK xx st. HK xx Launcher
Juri (juggle): cr. HP, j. HP (land) cr. MK xx LK Pinwheel
326 DMG

This was a golden opportunity for wicked meter efficient damage. Both your characters were at full health and you had just baited a DP with a meter stocked. When possible, always start a punish with a raw launcher.

Optimal combo:
Bison (PUNISH): Launcher
Juri (juggle): cr. HP, j. HP (land) st. HP xx MK Pinwheel xx Tag
Bison (juggle): j. HP (land) st. HP xx HP Psycho Crusher
533 DMG
1M

That’s over fifty percent for 1 bar. You get my point.

There is much more to be said about the second round, but I am very tired and this post is getting long. If you have any questions feel free to ask. Overall my primary criticism is regarding your decision making in general. Be sure whatever you do, you keep an eye on how much health your point character has and base your combo choices on that and your current stock of meter.

[Vegaman]

0:23
Combo used:
Bison (hit confirm): cr. LK, cr. LK xx st. HK xx Launcher -
Juri (juggle): cr. HP [whiff]
Had Juri’s juggle been completed the combo would have yielded -
315 DMG

Optimal:
Bison (hit confirm): cr. LK, (link) cr. MK xx st. HK xx Launcher -
Juri (juggle): cr. HP, jf. HP (land/pause) st. HP xx LK Pinwheel
345 DMG

0:40
Combo used:
Juri (hit confirm): HK Shikusen (land) [whiff]
(Assuming c. MK xx LK Pinwheel) Had the combo been completed it would have yielded -
180 DMG

This is a common drop among developing Juri players. 180 is indeed the most meterless damage to be gained from this situation, but here is some advice to make sure you don’t drop this combo again:

If Shikusen strikes your opponent in the chest or above, c. MK xx Pinwheel will work just fine. However, the lower the hit connects the more awkward it becomes. In some situations Juri can walk forward slightly and connect the c. MK. In others, it is either impossible or prohibitively difficult to connect it at all. To remedy this, use st. MP xx Pinwheel instead. Note that using st. MP, you will need to charge the Pinwheel for a brief moment to allow both hits to connect. It is not necessary to walk forward using this method in any situation and works reliably no matter how high or low Shikusen connects.

That said, in this situation I feel the best decision would have been to use this opportunity to bring in Bison. Here is the optimal way to do so:

Juri (hit confirm): HK Shikusen (land) st. MP xx MK Pinwheel (slight delay before release) xx Tag
Bison (juggle): j. HP (land) st. HP xx HP Psycho Crusher
390 DMG
1M

Bison actually has fancier combo options than this but they are too height and distance dependant to be reliable.

1:07
Combo used:
Juri (hit confirm): CH j. MK (land) c. MK xx Super
398 DMG
2M

This was a horrible decision. Juri was nearly dead. Your goal at that point in the match should have been to get her out and this was your opportunity. You also wasted alot of meter in the process.

Optimal combo:
Juri (hit confirm): CH j. MK (land) st. MP xx MK Pinwheel (slight delay before release) xx Tag
Bison (juggle): j. HP (land) st. HP xx HP Psycho Crusher
498 DMG
1M

1:35
Combo used:
Bison (PUNISH): st. LK xx st. HK xx Launcher
Juri (juggle): cr. HP, j. HP (land) cr. MK xx LK Pinwheel
326 DMG

This was a golden opportunity for wicked meter efficient damage. Both your characters were at full health and you had just baited a DP with a meter stocked. When possible, always start a punish with a raw launcher.

Optimal combo:
Bison (PUNISH): Launcher
Juri (juggle): cr. HP, j. HP (land) st. HP xx MK Pinwheel xx Tag
Bison (juggle): j. HP (land) st. HP xx HP Psycho Crusher
533 DMG
1M

That’s over fifty percent for 1 bar. You get my point.

There is much more to be said about the second round, but I am very tired and this post is getting long. If you have any questions feel free to ask. Overall my primary criticism is regarding your decision making in general. Be sure whatever you do, you keep an eye on how much health your point character has and base your combo choices on that and your current stock of meter.

This is good stuff…

A tip about combos tho Emp, it’s good to have an easier, less damaging combo (bnb) ready just in case you run into execution problems for any random reason. General rule of thumb, if you drop a combo twice in a match, stop trying to land that combo for the rest of the match. If you drop it at all more than 3 matches in a row… stop using it till you get it down again in training mode. Always take the guaranteed damage. If your execution is top notch, then go for the most damaging regardless of difficulty. I cannot do Vega’s most damaging combo consistently because of it’s difficulty. Until i get that combo down i wont try it in a match. Now i have Vega’s 2nd most damaging combo down expertly. It’s also pretty difficult. But I dont drop it often. If i do drop it twice in a match tho i go to Vega’s 3rd most damaging combo, which is really easy to do. I do this because guaranteed damage is better than half combo damage or even worse… getting reversaled and comboed yourself. Now if the game is on the line and you dont have enough time for 2 combos and it’s borderline that the most damaging combo will kill… you don’t have a choice. You have to go for it. But if the game isnt on the line… it’s better not to take unnecessary risks

[ShadolooDoll]

Optimal combo:
Juri (hit confirm): CH j. MK (land) st. MP xx MK Pinwheel (slight delay before release) xx Tag
Bison (juggle): j. HP (land) st. HP xx HP Psycho Crusher
498 DMG

Optimal combo:
Bison (PUNISH): Launcher
Juri (juggle): cr. HP, j. HP (land) st. HP xx MK Pinwheel xx Tag
Bison (juggle): j. HP (land) st. HP xx HP Psycho Crusher
533 DMG
1M

what? so are you saying I jump and hit with hp, then stand hp to psycho crusher? unless I’m mistaken, that’s not possible with the nature of Bisons jump. In fact I just tried it in training unless I’m not understanding you.Even further, I have NEVER seen a Bison let alone a high level one do that. Does that combo work or are you doing theory? I could just not be understanding what you are telling me though.

And as for the mk switch pinwheel combos, i need to figure out the timing because as of now its not reliable for me. Many times when I tag Bison in through her pinwheel, it doesn’t work right and it either whiffs or he is unable to connect all of the normals to finish the combo.

I’ll give the stand mp thing a try, thanks!

[Intuitive2011]

what? so are you saying I jump and hit with hp, then stand hp to psycho crusher? unless I’m mistaken, that’s not possible with the nature of Bisons jump. In fact I just tried it in training unless I’m not understanding you.Even further, I have NEVER seen a Bison let alone a high level one do that. Does that combo work or are you doing theory? I could just not be understanding what you are telling me though.

And as for the mk switch pinwheel combos, i need to figure out the timing because as of now its not reliable for me. Many times when I tag Bison in through her pinwheel, it doesn’t work right and it either whiffs or he is unable to connect all of the normals to finish the combo.

I’ll give the stand mp thing a try, thanks!

[media=youtube]zinvDv6SfBM[/media]

Enjoy! You should try to link into Cr.Mk with both of your characters.

[ShadolooDoll]

[media=youtube]zinvDv6SfBM[/media]

Enjoy! You should try to link into Cr.Mk with both of your characters.

I appreciate that, very nice of you to make a video, but what he is telling me to do is after a pinwheel cancel from juri to jump at my opponent while he/she is in the float state, hit with heavy punch, land, then do close hp into psycho crusher

he told me to do this

Optimal combo:
Bison (PUNISH): Launcher
Juri (juggle): cr. HP, j. HP (land) st. HP xx MK Pinwheel xx Tag
** Bison (juggle): j. HP (land)** st. HP xx HP Psycho Crusher
533 DMG
1M

im saying that I think that’s not possible to my current knowledge, hence why Bison uses hell attack instead, unless Im really doing something wrong. I could show you a video of me not being able to do it if needed in training mode.**

[Intuitive2011]

I appreciate that, very nice of you to make a video, but what he is telling me to do is after a pinwheel cancel from juri to jump at my opponent while he/she is in the float state, hit with heavy punch, land, then do close hp into psycho crusher

he told me to do this

Optimal combo:
Bison (PUNISH): Launcher
Juri (juggle): cr. HP, j. HP (land) st. HP xx MK Pinwheel xx Tag
** Bison (juggle): j. HP (land)** st. HP xx HP Psycho Crusher
533 DMG
1M

im saying that I think that’s not possible to my current knowledge, hence why Bison uses hell attack instead, unless Im really doing something wrong. I could show you a video of me not being able to do it if needed in training mode.

I feel slightly retarded.

[Fergus2k8]

[media=youtube]YxnDPsvd0Ys[/media]

A set I had with Robofobe, any critiques would be nice.

Besides DP AAing and my horrific execution with Julia and Asuka’s upkicks instead of oni after j.hk > st.hk >_>, if I do hcb and end in f, I get upkicks which is pretty annoying.

[Intuitive2011]

[media=youtube]YxnDPsvd0Ys[/media]

A set I had with Robofobe, any critiques would be nice.

Besides DP AAing and my horrific execution with Julia and Asuka’s upkicks instead of oni after j.hk > st.hk >_>, if I do hcb and end in f, I get upkicks which is pretty annoying.

Appreciate the video, Fergus. But could you give us a maximum of 1-3 matches that you’d like to be critiqued, please. As some of us such as Silph and Vulcan will critique your whole match, but it would be quite time consuming.

obviously, if somebody decides to watch it all, then happy days.

I mean, time stamp the video’s you want us to watch.

[Fergus2k8]

Hmmm I’ll do that next time

[Intuitive2011]

Hmmm I’ll do that next time

Stop being a silly, yes, I called you A SILLY.
Well loo, if you can wait, I’ll watch the whole set, later. And then I’ll respond to it.

[Fergus2k8]

Ah yeah I don’t mind, can do a small bit of it if you want, don’t have to watch whole thing really :P.

[Vegaman]

Enjoy! You should try to link into Cr.Mk with both of your characters.

damn you beat me to it

[DocDignity]

btw sorry I haven’t watched the other vids yet but I definitely plan to.

Can’t wait to get torn to pieces by you

What a great threat. Love it.
Also what Silph posted is really good stuff. Acually I just like him, because he’s the only decent Dudley I regularly watch

[Vulcan_Hades]

lol but seriously don’t expect much advice from me regarding Gief. I have never played a grappler in my life so it wouldn’t feel right to give advice on how to play a character I know very little about. All I can do is give general advice and point out weaknesses or bad management decisions etc.

Obviously if it’s a character I play (Yoshi, Juri, Christie) then I’ll be able to say a lot more things.

Good stuff Silph.

[DocDignity]

lol but seriously don’t expect much advice from me regarding Gief. I have never played a grappler in my life so it wouldn’t feel right to give advice on how to play a character I know very little about. All I can do is give general advice and point out weaknesses or bad management decisions etc.

No worries. At my level even general advice is helpful

[Intuitive2011]

No worries. At my level even general advice is helpful

It’s just a theory right now. I play Gief sometimes, I like the character A LOT. Now, I like to think of this moment as an EWGF. I call it that because you only have one frame to react to it (well, at least in my mind). It’s the moment where you walk into LP SPD range, they turtle for that one frame and you SPD. Have you ever tried to adopt such a mentality where you’d SPD on reaction to certain things?

[Vegaman]

No worries. At my level even general advice is helpful

I sudo main gief so i’ll give it a shot in a few. Although if you’re more advanced than me in footsies and fundamentals along with just being a better gief over all… ignore my advice.