You’re right, they did make him as a parody, but he still has become a very popular character, and I think it is because of him being the underdog in most of his matchups, even if primarily for only his comedy relief. Despite that, in the right hands though, Dan can be dangerous.
I had a follow up thought onto how sf5 ranked mode could work.
The player clicks ranked mode and then is instantly shown a character select screen where they are to pick a character. Their character choice is then ‘locked’ the entire time they are in ranked mode unless they back out to the main menu again (or use an option to change character maybe), this is to prevent counter picks. A match is selected for the opponent (they don’t get to choose) who is of appropriate rank (see my previous post), and the opponent’s ping is displayed with the option to manually set the ggpo delay like skullgirls, the players also have the option to re-start the search if they feel the opponent’s ping is too high. Then a 30 second ‘warmup’ round starts (similar to cs go) where the players can test the connection (since it’s ggpo delay they could just use a training dummy, this would avoid people griefing the connection test) and have the option to either: play the opponent or leave with no punishment towards their player record. If the players don’t need the entire 30 seconds, they can ‘confirm’ the match and instantly start. Ranked matches will then be played in a best 2/3 match format, just like standard tournaments.
If sf5 is going try to go esports, I think they’re going to have to make ranked matches emulate a tournament setting as much as possible. There should also be a system in place to kick idlers, and punish people for disconnecting. The system could be like cs go as well where the player is banned from matchmaking for a temporary amount of time for leaving. 30 mins the first time, an hour the second time: whatever.
Personally, I would prefer to see just a player rating instead of a player AND character rating. This would, imo, be the most efficient way to have the rankings work. Sure you can try a new character in ranked mode, but you will always be playing people of the same rank (skill) when doing so.
@theblackhombre I think you are on the right track emulating what the big esports games are doing, as far as matchmaking goes. Is it just far too simplistic to make matchmaking based off of win/loss ratio?
On another subject: Anyone hear anything about when the next Vesper video is supposes to be released?
Trying to factor in character matchups and overall character balance into the ranking formula wouldn’t be fair to players and would probably cause more problems than good. I still think a win/loss/tie method is sufficient if SF5 uses the Elo system. I’ll try to explain how the system works as well as the applications of it.
Before each match starts, the system will calculate how many rounds each player (P1 or P2) is expected to win based on their ranks. After the match, the system will compare the prediction with what really happened and points will be deducted from a player and added onto the other player, or vice versa.
In CS GO, only wins/losses/ties in each round affects your rank in CS GO; nothing else aka not kills, score, or weapons used, etc. The same thing should apply in SF5, only a win/loss/tie per round affect your rank; aka not score, combo hit count, number of supers/specials/ex used, etc. Using the Elo system: wins will always gain Elo points, losses will always lose Elo points, ties will have the lower rated player gain a few points from the higher rated player.
Once you finally rank up or down, the player’s rank is reset to neutral (in their new rank) which gives the player a fair chance of ranking up/down again.
This means you won’t start from the bottom of your new rank: otherwise you’d lose 1 match and rank down or have to win 20 consecutive matches to rank up.
With all that being said, character balance will be an important part of keeping the ranking system fair. Tiers will always exist but if every character in SF5 is viable, this ranking system will be more than fair in my opinion.
Fuck any sort of point system. Just give us a Danisen battle system where x amount of wins levels you up to the next Dan rank and y amount of losses levels you down.
I disagree, I want rank to actually represent skill level (using the Elo system, aka not how sf4 did it). P4A has a system like what you described where you have to win 3 consecutive matches against a higher ranked opponent to rank up, people were abusing that system with disconnects like crazy.
I don’t think any fighting game, to my knowledge at least, has used the Elo rating system. With a real competitive ranking system and higher prize pots in tournaments (dat $500k now and who knows what else in the future from new sponsors coming in), I can see SF5 blowing up the fgc to esport popularity.
I think it’s time for the bar to be raised and a new standard set for the fighting game online experience. SF5, imo, holds all the cards as to what will define a real “next-gen” fighting game, at least in the esport world.
I just want something aesthetic that you earn from climbing the ranks. Not just an icon, but maybe something like an additional color.
But in that case, online rank will mean less since competition is primarily offline and rankings are based on tournament results/points.
I don’t understand the reasoning behind that way of thinking. Using the Elo system, your rank would represent your skill level as a player. Saying that competition is just offline and player skill can only be judged with tournament results instantly discredits people who: aren’t able to travel to majors, may not compete, are online warriors, etc. A player’s skill should be indicative of well… their skill, having a ranking system based around indicating theit skill level shouldn’t be looked down upon imo. The Elo rating system works well in many esport games in a ranked mode setting while not discriminating people who compete and don’t compete. The FGC is different from esports because we don’t have ‘ladders’ or ‘rankings’ in tournaments (outside of Capcom Pro Tour even though that’s really new), we have players that are well known because they consistently or occasionally place high in tournaments, or are prominent figures in the FGC. Other competitive games have adopted a competitive ranking system, and I would finally like to see fighting games do the same. An amazing implementation of GGPO + the Elo rating system could really revolutionize the fighting game online experience imo. Online could become a viable competitive training ground through: online tournaments and an easy method to play against other players of your skill level and above, like esport games, without hindering the offline tournament scene.
In my opinion, I think the fgc as a whole would grow due to new competition and population being bought into the scene. Players without a local scene can train online and test their skills in actually offline tournaments, whether it be local tournaments or major tournaments. Following up from previous posts I’ve made in this thread, SF5 could make players aware of the fgc by having tournament results, streams, player interviews, player-made combo videos/tutorials/etc, and whatever else be displayed and updated on the main menu of the game. That and the addition of an excellent tutorial mode that teaches fighting game fundamentals in addition to game mechanics would be a great starting path to doing that. I believe there would be a big influx of people getting into the scene this way. And regarding players who are casual players who desire to remain casual players, they can enjoy un-ranked mode or various casual friendly modes that are multiplayer or singleplayer maybe like world tour mode, tekken (street fighter in this case) ball, endless (unranked), story mode, etc.
I understand your view on offline tournaments truly representing a player’s skill level, but SF4 was the first fighting game that I took seriously (and then branched out to other games) and I’ve always thought the online experience in fighting games was always lacking. Other games ranked mode actually meant something, I would like to see fighting games become modernized and finally catch up to what other games are doing. In my opinion, that will be achieved through GGPO + Elo rating system in ranked mode.
Because even with GGPO/rollback netcode, online is still very different from online. Anything outside of 1-2 frames of delay is already questionable. As much as some don’t want to admit, the genre itself is more suited for offline play than online play.
The other thing that ties into this is the culture. Fighting games and the FGC have always been something more focused on actually showing up in person to fight. Comes from the old school arcade culture. A good part of getting recognized was being able to walk in, weather the storm of cold shoulders and icy looks, step up to the cabinet and prove you worth - often while rubbing shoulders with a guy who’s popping off into your ear the whole time. Add to that the fact that we have a situation where some top players may not even own a copy of the game and rely on offline competition to get good and we get a a community that values offline competition and going out to compete.
Additionally (and I will admit to some bias here due to being a tournament organizer), offline competition is the lifeblood of the genre’s competitive scene. The only way for our scene to grow is if more people actually come out to compete in events. No matter how good online play is, if people aren’t coming out to play the game at offline events, then the game is as good as dead as an esport for the simple fact that smaller turnouts mean smaller payouts. This might even kill off smaller tournaments and events.
Honestly, if you want to be part of the FGC, then you do need to make the effort to go out and attend offline events. @DaRabidDuckie once made a post on the Skullgirls forums addressing just about every excuse given by people who don’t go out to play.
Spoiler
Great points d3v, I think the problem at least in America (most places) is that it is a great inconvenience to play offline. If you have a few buddies who also play that’s great, but that isn’t going to get you to grow like the constant competition of countless individuals you face in an arcade environment. Arcades are dead for the most part in America, so it takes a lot of organization, a lot of planning, perhaps a lot of travel to get a mass gathering. Even that still doesn’t compare to an the endless influx daily players in Japan get going to any arcade.
HIDE the rank AND name of the opponent until AFTER the game; this could simulate head-to-head arcade competition where you first don’t know your opponent. If you show someone their opponent’s rank, you have already caused them to have a prejudice or predisposition/assumption about their opponent. After you win or lose, accrue points as necessary. If you ragequit, ban for a week. A week of not playing online should cool you off, and help the rest of the community by not having a ragequitting ass-wipe online.
I just want to say that CS GO match making is a queue, you press play (you can pre-set your search options like stages, mode, etc); then you are put into a match. You can see the names of the opponents once the match starts but you cannot see their rank until after the match. I would like to see SF5 ranked like that as well.
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I just want to say one last thing in response and if you want to give a response as well, I will respectfully listen but I’m personally done with this debate. We’ve both made our points and thoughts clear.
With that being said, I’m not expressing my view with any disrespect or malice towards yours, but I feel your way of thinking on the subject is backwards. From what I understand from your points: the fgc is primarily offline and players should take the step to support that scene and play in offline tournaments. I agree with that; however, holding back the development of the online experience in the fighting game genre in order to accomplish that isn’t something I agree with. I think everybody can agree on this next point: the online experience with the fighting games as a whole could be a lot better. This has been proven with proper rollback netcode (ie: ggpo). Adding on to that, we can both agree that online is different than offline and that affects fighting games a great deal. But that also affects other competitive games as well which you aren’t giving much credit for. The idea I tried to express was that a great implementation of ggpo netcode and the Elo rating system (ranked mode) has the possibility to create a fair and competitive platform for competition online. This is seen in many other competitive video games (esports) while also addressing your primary concern of a possible decline in offline competition/tournaments. This accessibility (and awareness) of an online competitive platform supports the offline competitive scene. From what has been shown with esport games, it simply brings more people into the scene. It turns casuals into competitors, and I believe this will bring more people into the offline scene. I just want to say one thing before I continue, a good friend of mine in my local scene said this about people who don’t compete:
‘It doesn’t matter if the player is an online warrior, can’t come out to tournaments, doesn’t want to come to tournaments, whatever; if they give a rat’s ass about improving… they’ll eventually come out to tournaments, they all do’. I’m part of a big scene in Orlando FL, and I can personally attest as a witness of that by saying that’s true.
Moving on, we have already seen Topanga league, PxG gaming, and Capcom Cup hold online tournaments; I don’t see why this shouldn’t be encouraged in the future with a robust and modern online experience. The online experience for fighting games is really dated when you compare them to esport games, I believe a new standard needs to be set for the fighting game genre if we want to see it explode like esports has. And that’s what brings me to my last point (which is all my previous posts), of creating a bridge between the casual and competitive world (like what esports do):
[list]
[] Tutorial mode that teaches fighting game fundamentals
[] Main menu have latest news regarding: tournament results, live tournament streams, top player interviews, player-made combo videos/tutorials/etc, and whatever else is going on in the competitive world
[] GGPO net-code
[] Elo-rating system to give a real competitive platform for online ranked play.
[/list]
I’m looking at this idea with an open and non biased mind, and I can’t think of any reason why this shouldn’t be done; even from a business standpoint from Capcom. I don’t believe your points hold much weight when the entire picture is taken into account. I believe your concerns of reduced offline support will not become a reality, and my opinion is decided out of information taken in the esport scenes.
Now don’t get me wrong, I am a competitor and I support my local scene (I’m almost the wrong person to be telling this to as I’ll elaborate in the spoiler below); but I feel your ideas will hold back the development of the genre by not modernizing what the online experience could be.
Spoiler
I wrote this in a spoiler because it’s unrelated to my post and is just information that is about my personal life. I am part of the Orlando CEO scene and I’m relatively well known in the Street Fighter scene there. When I first started in the scene, I did so as a complete beginner. I got into the scene because I wanted to compete, I already had the mindset and determination to put in the work and time. I had a hard time making friends to play with because I was a complete newbie. However, I made friends because of my friendly personality but I was always given the short end of the stick of having good play-time at casuals at tournaments simply due to my skill level.
Years passed by and I became a good player, I get top 8’s at the local tournaments time to time and I’m a regular at all the meet ups. I know who most everyone is, and most everyone knows who I am. I go to the big CEO (the major tournament that everyone knows, but we also have smaller scaled ones spread apart by many months) every year and I’m always amazed at how much I improved every year since I test my skills by playing as many top players as I can. I was very humbled to go 1-2 against Xian back in 2013 and I have gotten even better since then.
With that being said, I know what it’s like to have a hard time getting the opportunity to become part of the community and get the tips that you really need to improve. It’s so common for people in the fgc to be rude to newcomers or give vague advise like “don’t jump and just block”. I was there before and I really do my part to introduce and teach newcomers (or beginners or w/e) into the community. I’m a very friendly guy, I’m really extroverted and former jobs I’ve had were literally about promoting and talking to people; so I do a lot of talking to people when I’m at tournaments. I ask them if they’re part of the facebook groups (usually they’re not), and I add them on facebook and invite them to all our local facebook groups. I tell them about when we have usual hostings, who hosts them, who are good players to play in our scene to improve; and I even go on step further and tell them to add certain people on facebook and say “Josh sent you” so they’ll invite them over to play. I sit down with players and I tell them all the things they need to improve. I actually sat down with a player for over an hour today (granted it was online) doing the same thing. So please, I believe I am the last person to be told to support my scene. Another thing I want to say is that I actually hate playing sf4 online with a passion, the game is radically different online compared to offline. And yet with me saying that, it’s almost surprising that I can be as passionate about my stance for an improved online experience for the fighting game genre! I really think this is the direction the fighting game genre needs to take.
On an unrelated note: That exact message that Duckie wrote about Skullgirls is actually the reason why I decided to compete in skullgirls. The skullgirls scene was struggling to stay afloat (pretty much everywhere) and I really did my part to try to compete in the game and get people to play the game in the Central FL area. We tried having hostings, promoting for tournaments, yet nobody really came. Skullgirls is the definition of a great fighting game that sadly doesn’t have much of a lively competitive community. I believe it’s because of the vast number of casuals that play the game yet refuse (seriously) to come out to tournaments. I don’t know if you need me to do a history lesson on that topic, but it really is true. In addition to that, we have players that play skullgirls at a great level yet don’t want to compete in it.
That’s all I have to say, thanks for taking the time to listen to me.
I don’t like this Idea very much. I like to know who I fight because I can adapt my gameplan to that particular person. Some like to mash dp, some like to backdash, some have patterns that I know of etc. I like that part of fighting game, the adaptation to a match up and a player.
This is a bad idea too. I have a great connection but when there’s work on my internet line (and it happens quite often sadly) I have some random disconnection. Should I be punished for a problem I can’t control because a couple of dick rage quit online ?
If a guy rage quit put him in your ignore list and you’ll never face him again, it’s good enough I think.
The point is, online must always be seen as secondary and inferior to offline. Even if you have the highest possible rank in an Elo system, this must mean only two things, jack and shit, until you come out to a major and win… and even then, you must do so on a regular basis.
I didn’t know the online ranking meant so much to you guys. Do you really care that much about that seriously ? because if you do believe it means something I have to tell you right now : I’m a 0pp 0bp usf4 player, my post isn’t even worth reading… I guess.
I like the idea of not knowing the opponent’s rank/tag until after the match. The only thing necessary for me to know before a match is that whoever I’m playing against has a good connection and a low disconnect rate, but also I’d like the option of a 2/3 match format to go with that. The downside is I’d imagine more anger-prone randoms rage quitting if they’re too far behind, but I think most of them do it anyway in a single match format.
I tend to agree with @theblackhombre. Why would you purposefully want to discourage online play? To me a robust online mode and ranking system could only serve to build the tournament scene and FGC as a whole.
Of course @dev face to face live tournaments will always be the gold standard, but I disagree that a good online ranking system and community would detract from players/spectators actually showing up to tournaments.
Also let’s be real, there is a certain percentage of the community that simply can not or will not show up to local events with any regularity. This is for a myriad of reasons as outlined in the Skullgirls spoiler above. I think a good online system can keep these players involved enough to care and be trained up for when their closest major rolls around.
I know I would benefit from this. Wife, 2 young children, full time job, etc. just don’t allow me to go to weekly get-togethers. So by the time CEO comes around I really haven’t been playing enough to enter. I think a good online ranking system could potentially change that.
When it comes to online I normally don’t touch ranked. Some the best people I’ve played against only do player matches
I just hope online netcode is good for this game. Capcom can no longer lie to us like they always do.
I remember MVC3 came out and they gave us bouncing cards while the people played online (with garbage netcode to boot) and they told us it technically was not possible to let us spectate because there is too much data with the 6 characters. Then they put out UMVC3 with spectator mode.
I remember they said they could not do GGPO code with SF4 because they said it’s not technically possible with games that have 3D models to use GGPO. Then we got SFxT (which still had garbage netcode where sound cut out and inputs simply were dropped) and now we have Killer Instinct that is virtually like playing in the same room as the guy.
So Capcom can’t hide behind their lies this time around with the netcode. KI set a new standard with netcode so I’m curious to see how Capcom responds with their netcode.
As many have said, going to offline tourneys simply is not feasible for the vast majority of people who like fighting games. The people who go to tourneys and what not are in the vast minority.