Prove it. Give me evidence.
You forgot the shitty priority engine in 3s, huge reversal windows in sf4, and kof 12.
Didn’t you JUST try to justify something by saying that it’s common sense? That doesn’t let him off the hook, but come on son.
“Prove” is a tough word in this discussion. What you want, a peer-reviewed study on physical practice in fighting games?
Diminished returns is a pretty common idea in learning though, to the point that it’s pretty much universal. You shouldn’t even be questioning that it happens.
That being said, the point you could argue is the shape of the curve.
Others can chime in with their own experiences, but for me physical exercise is a very sharp ‘hockey stick’ graph (or sideways hockey stick, if that’s a thing), something shaped like this:
In comparison, the other aspects, in my experience, tend to be a fairly slight S-curve:
(note that these are just for shapes, ignore the x and the y)
Again, I'd love to hear others chime in and corroborate or disagree, but this is my experience. After a while I get very little benefit from execution practice, and that's in line with just our understanding of practice and work. Playing on the other hand, there's a definite time when you're really making gains, but it never tapers off to the degree that execution practice does.
To everyone else, is my experience really that far off from you guys'?Strategy vs execution, hey? I believe in executing my strategy.
But I don’t understand why the thread title is asking me where I stand, I usually sit down when I play.
HAW HAW HAW.
I execute my strategies, and have different strategies to execute that require great execution. Although, with out execution strategy is useless and without strategy execution is useless. However, execution or strategy from were you stand is depending on the game execution and strategies you play which very’s from different types execution and strategies. Like Marvel executions and strategies r obliviously different from SF’s execution and strategies. Although, they share little strategies and executions here and there. Furthermore, Execution and strategies involving the strategies an executions from were you stand is a offbalanced topic if you ask me. From Execution to strategies to strategies to executions your going to greatly need both equally execution & strategies in high level gameplay. No matter what FG your playing whether its Marvel to SF strategy is much better to get down. Strategies first then move on to executing your strategy to a greater intent with execution of stronger combos in your strategy that you’ve already executed to defeat your opponents strategy that he or she is trying to execute on you.
Although, Execution and strategies of strategies and execution of execution of the strategies of the strategies of execution. of execution an strategies…
This thread man…
The only reason this thread is still open is because I enjoy seeing how masochistic you bastards are. I have no idea why anyone in their right mind continues to post in this thread.
People who should know better keep posting stupid shit. If they aren’t addressed then the new people will continually repeat stupid things and we all suffer for it.
This is you right now:
http://thomashunter.name/batman-comic/gen/20120806223630_5020a95e656b6.jpg
Anybody still in here is enjoying the thread as-is.
Never did get those"OMG this place sucks!" posts, just don’t click on the thread of it bugs you.
(excepting robin getting bitch-slapped, that’s always funny)
Sent from my Radar 4G using Board Express
Just so we are clear, I am talking from a top player/competitive player’s POV. Using casuals or non-top players in this particular subject is pointless because casuals tend to have shitty execution. Execution has no diminishing returns when it comes to top/competitive players.
I don’t think it’s tough to prove at all, depending on your position.
I absolutely believe that diminished returns exist but not when it comes to Execution in fighting games. Definitely not.
See, most of these debates could be avoided by you being more clear. When you say execution has diminishing returns, to me, it feels like you’re trying to say that objectively, execution has diminishing returns. Objectively speaking, this is simply not true.
Note the bolded part in your quote. Now this is purely subjective. For you, maybe execution has diminishing returns but again, objectively speaking, execution does not have diminishing returns.
The only time execution would have diminishing returns is when a player’s execution has reached the limit (100% success rate). No player has nor will ever have a 100% execution success rate. As long as players keep dropping combos, execution can always be improved upon.
**Also, the more execution that a player has, this allows that player to have access to more tools, setups, combos, mindgames, traps, etc. Having crappy execution allows players to have access to a smaller selection of tools, traps, combos, setups, etc. **I’ve used this example many times but really, it’s the perfect example - Cable AHVB through Sent HSF in MvC2. Imagine if a player couldn’t do this because they didn’t have the execution required to do it. They’re FUCKED! On the flip side, a player that has the execution required to do this, they have the option of using AHVB to counter HSF and possibly save their ass from HSF chip death. Not only that but it could possibly kill Sent if Cable has enough bars. This is the single best option for Cable, given the situation.
I disagree. IMO, you can make huge gains from practicing execution in training mode. The whole point is consistency - minimizing dropped combos.
P4A’s marketing description:
Genuinely accessible fighting caters for all skill levels at the same time.
[LIST]
[]Innovative single button combo system allows everyone to compete at a high level.
[]Simpler special move inputs allow you to concentrate on the thrill of competitive play and strategy – not the execution of moves.
[]Become progressively more powerful the closer you are to being knocked out!
[]More ways to interrupt combos – allowing novices more opportunity to counter-attack.
[*]Introduction of a ‘dodge’ function to move away from over reliance on blocking.
[/LIST]
Easy-mode inputs, brainless combos and comeback mechanics. Isn’t this exactly the type of game that so many people on SRK don’t want?
I’ll say it again though, none of this shit matters if the game is fun and can be played at a competitive level.
wanna focus on this part, because by saying ‘yeah tis real but FG’s are the exception’ you neatly deflected the burden of proof on yourself.
So go on, prove to us that FGs are unlike every other form of human endeavor, and that you don’t reach diminishing returns.
That’s the difference between fancy marketing lies and actually playing the game to see what it’s like. (Which is why you pay attention to Japan’s arcade scene in the first place)
- Other then Chie’s meteors, the awakening mode isn’t something to bitch about.
- Simpler inputs were made in a way that does not ruin the game (it’s not like you can mash DP inside a chain, and predictable reversals are punished with fatal counter 50%-70% combos, which must start with moves you can’t really expect to hit outside of punishment situations. I’d wish you could punish SF4 reversals in the same manner.)
- The combo system isn’t brainless. There is no “one true combo” and you are forced to make decisions on the fly. Also auto combos are useless for the most part.
They build loads of SP and Burst. And if it’s, say, an opponent with only enough life or less to get killed by the auto combo, jamming A is much safer than going for even a basic BnB.
None of this is me blasting auto combos. It’s way better here than in SFxT.
The 1st 3 As are used in regular combos, but other than Mitsuru no one has a reason to get to the part where it automatically does specials and supers. (you know… the “auto” part)
if someone says the combos are brainless they haven’t touched the game.
I’m not saying the game is good or bad, I’m saying that everything that the majority of SRK appears to hate is actually being hailed as positive aspects. The arcade scene in Japan or anywhere else has nothing to do with this. SSFIV is still one of the more popular fighting games there. Are you suddenly going to change your tune about that game now? Thought so.
Auto-combos are brainless. It doesn’t mean it’s a good or bad thing, but I don’t see how you can argue that pressing A, A, A, A actually requires any sort of skill or thought. Yeah there are harder combos, just like in most other games, but auto-combos have their place in this game, and they’re spectacularly easy to perform.
Are you even listening? I’m telling you that just because a game has “comeback mechanics” in the list of features to fool noobs into playing, doesn’t mean it’s really present at high level play. (Which is the reason you follow the arcade version, to see what the game is like at high level.)
No one claimed that having comeback mechanics is a good thing, but it’s a good thing that they are fluff and don’t really matter. You cannot say the same about X-Factor.
Yes they have- In this game they actually ADD DEPTH to it, in most case. By having an option for a weaker combo that gives you bonus super gauge and burst, you insert more decision making into “what to do after I score a hit”.
Which exactly the same that can be said about high level AE.
The bottom line (as I said before) that it doesn’t matter if the game is fun and can be played at a competitive level. Theory fighting about strategy/execution in isolation is pointless. You can have the best ideas in the world to foster strategy or execution driven gameplay but if the systems don’t gel well together then the game will probably suck. Just like you can throw some of the dumbest ideas in a game and it can turn out to be accidentally good because of glitches or whatever, or they can just happen to work well together. If P4A turns out to be a good game then it’s certainly not going to be because you can mash A, A, A into super…
Either you’re trying to argue that they’re hard to do, or you’re not, but I don’t see that point of this. Yes, the more options you in any situation, the deeper the option tree. That’s got nothing to do with execution which, in case you haven’t noticed, is what I’m talking about.
Mashing A into super is shit unless you’re guaranteed a kill, but the first three As are all unique normals (there’s no way to get Elizabeth’s 5AA except by doing 5AA, as an example) which is where the depth is added by autocombos, not the actual autocombo bit where you can hit A to skip a special and/or super motion.
Though I really do hate the existence of Awakening. Would people seriously be okay with Ultras in SF4 if the actual Ultra was only okay but you could use your Ultra meter to FADC or for EX moves? I’m willing to put up with it, though, since I do put up with x-factor on a weekly basis.