viscant winning evo @ 2k11 with wesker ring any bells? i’ve watched viscant since the early days of mvc2, trust me he is not a player known for execution. In a game where execution really mattered like mvc2, viscant was below average once the game developed. I trained people in 3 months that got further executionally than viscant did in 4 years. I’m not hating on him or anything, just merely stating facts.
noah making it to top 50 with bbcs.
don’t forget noel brown got top 8 that year too with wolvy combos that can be done with 1 hand
when I get bored with umvc3, I sit there and see how many characters have easy ass bnb combos that can be done with 1 hand. while they dont 100% kill you, holy fuck do they do enough life and leave you in a fucked ass position.
I’m talking about Umvc3, after the damage was tuned down for some characters.
In vanilla you don’t need to TOD with a phoenix team, just to avoid getting hit and getting phoenix snapped in and killed.
And Noah didn’t get far because of damage of ABCS BBCS, (which isn’t a TOD) but because people did not adjust to Hulk’s super armor moves. Like it or not, they are a game changer, and even an overall better player can lose to it if he plays like he normally does and has no anti-Hulk experience.
hulks abcs, bbcs string does INSANE life and yea he got that far because of that damage on the combo. Its insane because you can call wesker when you land and bbcs again. Its probably the most damaging bbcs combo in the whole game when you take into account noahs team which is hulk\wesker\sent.
if hulk had armor moves but hit like strider, there is no way in fuck that noah makes it that far. The damage being jacked up on hulk combos because its hulk really helped him get that far.
it was a combination of durpy damage and super armor. it simply wasn’t JUST the super armor. If noah had to play 4 layers to kill a character rather than 1, he’s not going to out think any experience player
I personally think this thread should be strategy/execution/style
Style is just as important imo since people can have similar strategies and different styles; different styles will naturally result in differing execution.
That being said, its a balance. I like high strategy and mid level execution (hour long combos are boring to do and watch). I’ve named my style guerrilla blitzkrieg since I essentially do hit and run, but I do as much damage as I can before disappearing into the shadows O_O
If you’re mistaking your ability to play a game with your ability to design one, you’re a god damn fool.
Similarly, your ability to drive a car isn’t your ability to make one.
Your ability to thoughtfully scrutinize a film isn’t your ability to write one.
That doesn’t mean every person commenting on this thread from a design perspective is a smart, thoughtful game designer.
It also doesn’t mean there aren’t valuable insights a great player can give a game designer.
But your ability to play something, by virtue of exactly what it is, is NOT your ability to design a game. Or even assess design.
That’s an entirely different thing.
That out of the way, certain people in this thread are going to keep mistakingly believing they are insightful about game design because they play games at a certain level. That’s what the Ignore function is for. Use it and instead of trying to convince fools, talk to the people either on the fence or who actually want to converse without pulling the video game equivalent of shouting “YOU WANNA GO?” like a common should’ve-been-throat-baby.
Yeah, I agree with tataki, the main problem was that people didn’t play the Hulk matchup correctly, and if you don’t know the Hulk matchup, any damage is too much. But I think even if Hulk did less damage (not quite Strider levels, but less) off his lmhs mmhs Noah could’ve done equally well.
But man, if Noah actually knew the Hulk one-touch combos…
EDIT: We have two Hulks here locally, actually, and when the first one came up, I think I felt exactly how the people playing Noah did, because every time I got hit by s.H I felt like I shouldn’t have gotten hit by it.
I could’ve sworn that Viscant did well because he counterpicked a whole tournament. He went in with a team to deal with a bunch of Wolverine players and people with shoddy anti-phoenix tech.
I mean its not like Viscant didn’t grind the hell out of his mix ups or anything…
At mid-to-high levels of play, perhaps. But for newcomers, it’s great. I don’t think I’ve ever hit by or even blocked a Super in ST when I played against a noob. In SFIV ultras are pretty much guaranteed every round when noobs are involved. There are a few things about about the input system that I don’t like, but it’s really easy for anyone who knows nothing about the game to just jump in and have fun without knowing about links or FADCs.
In terms of execution, I think SFIV is a good first (?) attempt at making a game that appeals to both beginners and hardcore players.
how the fuck do you counter pick a whole tournament while picking the same team over and over lol?? what you’re saying doesn’t make any sense.
he didn’t counter pick shit, he just picked the best team that gave him the best matchup #'s across the whole tournament spectrum he had to deal with @ that EVO and even then, he had to STILL deal with bad matchups. When you have to run into bad matchups, you are no longer counter picking… counter picking implies that you’re the favorite in the matchup 100% of the time
Its like saying Daigo counter picked everyone in sf4AE @ EVO because he played ryu the whole time. That isn’t a counter pick. That is 1 player playing the same team regardless of matchups and within that you get good matchups and bad matchups. All viscant did was stick to his guns that had helped him win heavily that year, it has 0 to do with counter picking.
and if you know anything about viscant, you should know he is not a versatile player. Have you seen his doom, his zero? his execution is extremely limited and to be able to counter pick, you have to play a wide array of styles and actually have solid execution. Viscant simply doesn’t have those tools. He has other god like tools like being able to identify a teams strength but he’s not exactly a well-rounded player
I know that Viscant has shitty execution. That’s not what makes Viscant a strong player; the dude is really smart when it comes to fighting games. People don’t think the team is a counter pick because they aren’t all that aware of what was gonna happen going into EVO. They weren’t aware because for the most part the FGC doesn’t really think that way. But if you really wanted to win Evo your team needed to really do a couple of things: 1) Beat Wolverine, 2) Deal with Zero, 3) avoid invincible assists, 4) Deal with Phoenix.
If you look at the cross counter vids, the first thing that becomes apparent is his switch from Iron Man assist to Haggar. Haggar assist in Vanilla was pretty nuts with its invincible start up and hard knockdown. This means that any time somebody teleported, all Viscant had to do was hit assist. If the assist was blocked he could teleport to safety and if it hit, he would get a combo. When you look at Wesker vs Wolverine for in Vanilla, Wesker is always the defensive player. There is not much choice in the matter for that match up. So instead of trying to force it against him, he just moved around until they got caught. Haggar was essentially Psylocke for the tournament.
Phoenix was bat shit bonkers in Vanilla. In all honesty everybody who wanted to win should’ve been playing her because anti-phoenix tech was not that strong. What was even better about it is that not only was the tech weak, but it would be even weaker amongst the majority of the low level players who were gonna run Wolverine/XX/Akuma. Viscant went in with what magic players refer to as a “metagame call” where you take something to deal with the specific field you think will be there. Under normal circumstances it would be a bad to not so great choice but if it pans out how you read it, the odds of you facing good match ups is really high.
If you really look at the field, you could say he had some bad match ups but what he really did was face different variations of teleport/invincible assist. Looking at his team again and at the decision to choose something to counter that then yes, it would be a counterpick. He ran it head first without a back up plan but believe me that if we had stayed with Vanilla, I would’ve learned Haggar/Phoenix just to run that against Wolverine teams.
Edit: I should had that had Viscant run into a Trish team with anti-Phoenix tech, he would’ve been beyond boned. Trish counters Wesker so hard. :shake:
Strategy is very important, but needing good execution should never leave the genre.
Not saying 1-frame links or raging storm motions should dominate the game, but harder stuff to do needs to be there as you naturally get better at the game by playing it.
I will and do play Civ 5 when I just want to flex my strategy muscle. The execution bar in that is moving and clicking a mouse.
I think there is such a huge discrepancy between what people are saying because of player skill.
when you have 2 good players in a game they’ve never played before, combos\execution are not the most important anymore, it has become strategy. No one knows anything about getting damage, the layers, whats risky and what isn’t. So the best way to play the game neither player knows is try to use as much strategy as possible. I noticed this the other day when I was playing a random DBZ game with my brother, neither of us new wtf was going on so were both using as much strategy as we could to win rather than using execution the engine offers which takes time to learn.
when both people start to understand a game execution and strategy start to have a battle. In some games, one is more important than the other. For example msp can just dice roll the fuck out of you in mvc2 right off the opener. You can literally teach a monkey to abuse the openers and it will eventually get you a few games just based on execution alone. I’m not saying mvc2 is a bad game because anyone who’s played justin in mvc2 knows there is an absurd strategy level players have to know. However, a monkey could not do the same thing in SF because most of the series doesn’t allow you to gamble in the opener like that and completely win the game so SF is primarily a strategy game.
opinions on whether or not execution\strategy is important basically derives from 2 things. How good you are as a player and which games you play. For example, a sf4 player would probably tell you strategy is wayyy more important than execution because that is what that game promotes. A marvel player will tell you execution is more important because that is what the game promotes. Only players who can play both spectrum’s actually understand the true question.
The answer IMO is pretty simple. Execution\strategy are both equally relevant until you start playing a game. Then depending on the game, one of the 2 has more precedence over the other. I’d say in sf4 its about 70\30 strategy to execution but in umvc3 its the opposite. Probably 70\30 in favor of execution. Good players have both spectrum’s mastered because good players typically can play more than 1 fighter @ high level. I think only average players will tell you 1 is stronger than the other. Good players will tell you both are equally important because they’ve been around to see both spectrum’s succeed in particular games.
Games change all the time and someone who only has strategy like a true SF player would have the fucking hardest time learning p4a. Its incredibly technical and strategy doesn’t seem as important when the other guy is giving you loop into tech trap into mixups. He’s literally killing you with nothing but execution. A good player will understand that the game, p4a in this case, is telling you execution is incredibly relevant and strategy alone will not make you an average player. Whether or not 1 is more important than the other simply depends on the game but good players bring a healthy mix of execution and strategy to the table. Its why some players can seemingly play any game like Justin and some players can only play a certain kind like some of the SF4 players.