I think my general issue is with games that change on a fundamental level through different stages of execution ability. Obviously better execution should reward you with better performance, I don’t think anyone’s disputing that, but with something like SF you’re pretty much playing a completely different (and massively inferior/less fun) game until you get a certain amount of time under your belt, which most people just don’t have. And lets be frank here, execution is nothing more than time.
As an example, I was playing someone recently who had obviously just started, he was pretty damn terrible. He had some sort of easy input gem on so couldn’t even perform basic specials without assistance BUT he’d learnt that if he performed one of his invincible specials when I was pressuring his wakeup, he’d score a knock down and reset the game. He was actually playing some Street Fighter. Without the assistance and the option to do that invincible special, his strategy on wakeup would have been limited to push buttons or don’t push buttons.
People keep using Starcraft as a justification for high execution, now I’ve never played it but what exactly can you not do at lower levels of execution dexterity?
Even if there were no execution barriers at all, she still wouldn’t be able to compete with you, no one is suggesting that, what sort of game would that be if she could?? At least though she’d be able to start to form a strategy against you from day one instead of 6 months down the line when she can actually get her character to do what she wants it to do. Some people seem to treat fighting game execution like some sort of safety barrier against newer players outsmarting them. It doesn’t matter if you can out-think me because you can’t execute that strategy against me even if you wanted to.
I think strategy is much more important then mindless execution. The execution of things like korean backdash just adds unneeded complexity to moving, putting less focus on forming a way to get in other than hoping the other person messes up on movement, then punish.
Execution is part of the genre because its part of the genre. For every person you can find an example of that would play fighting games if they were 100% strategy, there’s another person that got drawn in by the sick looking combos he saw. So basically, no matter how much of a ‘barrier’, or ‘bad design’, you think execution is, a fighting game is only a fighting game because of its specific form of physical dexterity tied to strategy.
And the best example of Starcraft 2 execution is Marine splitting. Zerg has a unit called a Baneling that suicides, and when it does it does a big aoe damage on biological units, most notable marines. So if a Terran player wants to be good, they have to learn how to split their marines (something the game gives you no assistance in), otherwise you won’t be able to beat a zerg player.
I’m totally fine with something like that. All I’m saying here is that when you emphasize the importance of one aspect, other aspects become less important. It’s a balancing act.
This reminds me of one thing I wanted to add here but forgot to. If lowering execution barriers makes a game worse, then why isn’t everyone complaining about plinking? Plinking turns one frame links to two frame links! Shouldn’t there have been a huge outcry for capcom to get rid of plinking so that you’d really have to work for those combos
Don’t you mean super difficult combos? There are many examples of sick-looking combos that are easy to do. There’s no real relationship between how sick a combo looks and how easy it is to perform. There’s tons of cool-looking, easy combos in UMVC3. By contrast, linking two jabs and a mid looks like shit in SF4, but it can be pretty hard (hard enough that Gamerbee misses that link sometimes).
So what you are saying is that the existence of difficult combos gives you the chance to have bragging rights for being able to do them? Fine by me. Never let it be said that I am against swag combos in games. But let that flash and style be their incentive. The flashy and difficult combos are already impressive for being flashy and difficult. No need for them to do more damage, lead to better setups, or start from safer hitconfirms. An objectively worse but easier to perform alternative is no alternative at all. In short, let them be like foil cards in collectible card games: stylish and flashy for those that care about them, a complete non-issue for those that don’t. That way you get to impress your friends by grinding in practice mode, but they don’t have to do the same just to play.
When the high execution barrier starts showing up in the basic stuff (ie. EWGF, C.Viper cancels, roll-cancelling, FRC, etc), that’s when you create problems.
So creating a way to safely backdash (cause you know regular backdashing in Tekken is punishable) is unneeded. Right…
Putting less focus on getting in? Its defensive technique like most forms of movement in Tekken besides the wavedash are, of course its gonna put less focus on getting in. The entire point of backdashing is to quickly get away from your opponent and hopefully force a whiff. Not games have to offensive oriented.
Also EWGF being basic? Only for Mishima players. Who are made for people who like high execution characters and not just for any John Doe. That doesn’t create problems, it adds to character diversity and makes the choice in character more personal.
I’m being serious, though. If he doesn’t like characters in the game having hard things to do, perhaps its just not the game for him.
EDIT: Though, of course, the C.Viper one and the EWGF one can be ignored, since those are solved by not playing those characters. There’s plenty of characters in both TTT2 and SF4 that don’t require that level of tech skill, so its not like you’re really strapped for choice. Kinda the same as a game having a few really low tier characters, but the rest being balanced. Hsien-Ko is probably the ultimate barrier to entry.
I still don’t see a thread on teamliquid about brainstorming how SC2’s execution barrier could be lowered to make the game more attractive to people that have never played it before.
i wouldnt have agreed with this a few pages ago, but im starting to come around
mostly on the basis of the thought that in a single real match, any strategic advantage is per-determined and static, and a generally better ability to execute has more open ended potential for dynamic and spontaneous victory
just to fuck things up tough- isnt the advantage of execution having access to more difficult or dynamic strategies
and if one is able to win by relying on their superior execution, isnt that a strategy
perhaps execution skill is merely the ability to implement a strategy successfully
also in a match where your per-determined strategy doesnt work, execution might save your ass, but you would also need the ability to improvise and implement new strategies on the fly (something like execution of the brain)
Because the popular entries in RTS genre have changed even less than fighting games have over the years, and people as well as developers are afraid of change. Theirs is also a community that worships APMs as being what skill wins matches.
but hey keep trolling each “side” so we all know you’re cool because you’re different and smarter than everyone else
To my understanding, specific links were designed into SF4, and certain rules defined around needing links (like the way special cancelling works, for instance). The combo system was designed from the ground up with unbuffered links in mind.
.That’s why I’ve been arguing all along that strategy is the wrong word anyways. Strategy, like you say, takes execution into account, and often relies on it. The counterpoint to execution are decision-making, reading, and adapting.
These sports promote physical fitness/execution as well. Pretty much every decent player in the bold 4 sports have people in ridiculous good shape, and it benefits in their sport. You can’t just be some fat ass(even the fat ass people work out in those types of sports anyway), and pretend that stragery will allow you to overcome the physical stress of the bolded four.
I’m sure people wouldn’t dare argue that grinding is pointless in those sports.
Leaving pro sports out of it entirely (grindwork is part of all jobs, just about), for all those sports mentioned, going to practice is also a social experience. It’s being part of a whole social group and scene.
Now there are some sports that you can practice alone (say boxing, sometimes track and field), but even then… serious physical activity is often its own reward. This is mostly a sit-at-home culture we’re dealing with yeah, but there’s a definite satisfaction and a really good feeling you get in the midst of a full-body workout. The practice is its own reward to a scale that fighting game practice can’t even begin to cope with.
So in general, practice and grinding in real sports is a whole different level of reward on a number of different ways as compared to practicemode grinding in a FG.