Strategy vs Execution: Where do you stand?

[ironboy89]

Second example, yes being able to do a standing SPD is execution, and useful execution at that. But his position is from the other player’s perspective, and once again its a knowledge/strategy situation, not an execution situation. The point is knowing what to do against Zangief, not how hard it is to do it.

You messing the point, the way how motions are design effect on the character is used. Even pros cannot escape a flaw in a character’s design.

Easy example, Crossed up a Bison trying to perform their charge move. One of the greatest/biggest weaknesses that charge move has that are extremely difficult to perform when crossed up charge move. It forces Bison players to basically auto correct a charge move. No matter how good Dogura is, he can’t escape the fact that Bison has a harder time auto correcting his special moves.

[Viache]

easy to define though, its an arbitrary or artificial barrier if its hard just for the sake of being hard.

A few notes though:
[LIST]
[]Once again, its on a scale, some basic layers of execution are always needed.
[]Accidental execution barriers can’t apply, intent is the key for that pieced of the discussion
[*]There are almost no such barriers in modern fighting games, its something designers know is bad.
[/LIST]

Which is exactly why I always ask for specific examples; otherwise this largely a theoretical/philosophical circlejerk. If you can’t think of any significant examples, then why is this even a discussion?

I don’t think you’ve ever explained why this distinction between intentional and incidental execution barriers matters. It’s like saying that if I designed Melty Blood and all of the hard stuff was accidental, then it’s a good game. Yet somehow if I made the exact same game and told you everything was intentional, then it’s a bad game. It makes no sense.

Anyway, I don’t think anyone would really disagree that you could make something too hard. Where that line is, however, is largely subjective.

[shoultzula]

You can’t really contribute much to this conversation as long as you keep mixing depth with high execution requirements. Those are 2 different things that have nothing to do with each other…
You could make Venom’s FRCs and combos easier and he will still be a deep character because the depth comes from different aspects. (Mainly, what you need to do in the neutral game, not during combos. Adding depth to combos comes from having different benefits for different combos, forcing you to make decisions on which combo to go for- Something that can be done without resorting to hard execution.)

hahahaha

god damn, this post sucks

i don’t know how so much info can be on srk and yet so many people are clueless. Its not even worth my time explaining the same shit over and over anymore. Even when topics like this make it to the front page, you guys still can’t get it right so you probably never will

I’m going to go back to training mode and continue to be a strong player, you guys can debate what makes a game deep
ot deep with flawed perspective. I’m sure that your shared perspective allows you guys to succeed exceptionally well in tournament play.

if you don’t have perspective, you just can’t have a good opinion. Its that simple

[HuStLeMaN17]

Execution is more important, if you can’t finish your plate you ain’t gonna win.

[ukyo_rulz]

It’s also not an artificial barrier just because you don’t like it. There are some people that really love throwing around “artificial/arbitrary barrier” without actually defining what that means.

There’s obviously no intrinsic reason for EWGF to be hard, because special moves that do not require that level of execution already exist. Same for 1-frame links. The existence of 2-frame links or even 3-frame links demonstrates that there is no intrinsic reason for those links to require 1-frame timing. Therefore, the difficulty in executing those moves is entirely artificial.

Dont remember saying i did not want to have to outsmart my opponent. I hust enjoy having to juggle botj aspects. It gives the games far more depth.

No, what you said was that higher execution requirements don’t water down strategy. They obviously do. If they didn’t then you wouldn’t have to juggle both at all. For execution to become more important, every non-execution thing must become less important. If your stand is that you don’t want either execution nor strategy to be all-important, that’s fine. If your stand is that higher execution requirements don’t reduce the importance of strategy, that’s wrong.

wtf, you’re stupid lol

Not my words, bro. You’re the one who said that in a game that is more about execution, players are more able to act like a dumbass.Then you contradict yourself a little later by saying that lowering execution (making players unable to act like a dumbass, according to you) dumbs down the game. So either you’re an idiot for making that post originally, or you’re an idiot for contradicting yourself one page later. Either way you’ve trapped yourself in a logical pit and there’s no way you’re not looking like the thread’s biggest moron right now.

Seriously, shoultzula, you’re trying to argue that making players less able to act like dumbasses (your words, not mine) is dumbing down the game. That’s just stupid.

[xes]

if you don’t have perspective, you just can’t have a good opinion. Its that simple

There aren’t proper words for the irony of this quote here.

[j_mONSTERFACE]

ok so before i make any kind of point id like to admit that im way newer and less a part of the community than xes, and if its gonna frustrate you that i would even try to say something here, then please simply do not read any further, just skip this

i was thinking about sf2, or not really that, but whatever game/games before that in which these inputs originated

and i cant help but think that when game designers came up with the dp or the hadoken or even something like holding back to block, they chose those specific things in an effort to find a balance between difficulty of execution and effect on overall strategy-although they probably wouldnt have thought of it as strategy, more like “game quality” or “balance” even “fun-ness” (just some quality that would make people not stop putting quarters into their machine)-they probably also took into account things like how difficult something would be to program/implement

i think its important to remember that these games and design concepts were made by “casual” players who could not preform/predict the things that would make these games successful, and that after their initial success they were probably, more then anything else, trying to replicate their past good luck, and please a new fanbase of people willing to spend a lot of money on something they did not understand enough to have created intentionally

there are, in these modern times, games by fgc for fgc (fubu games!-skullgirls, melty, whatever), and they have put some creative new things out there, but there havent been any to implement any concepts as radically new and significant as something like combos (as we all know, a complete accident) or even parries (something not even universally agreed to be significant, or positive)

the best of what fighting games (and people) are hinge on accidents and magic and cannot be hammered down or captured

that said, an input is always designed to be as easy as possible while still being in balance with its strategic significance
(except in the more cynical case of designers not caring about anything but $$$ [even more cynically, maybe thats all they ever cared about])

the real problem

is that some games are bad:cool:

eliminating either execution or strategy or placing one out of balance with another could only (except for on accident) make bad games

this question is like “liver vs. kidneys- where do you stand”

i stand behind the gas station

edit- tldr [SIZE=3](completely different point)version[/SIZE]- execution is the game but strategy must be considered, until someone gets good (high level play!) and then strategy is the game but execution must be considered…

the battle looks different to the grunts than it does to the generals

in a perfect game (mvc2?) i guess everything would be really easy except for the best stuff that is the only stuff worth doing at the highest level

[Lord_Raptor]

Why the fuck are things like EWGF such a sticking point for you idiots? It’s one move in a game full of characters with easier tools that if someone really likes grinding out and likes playing Misimas will learn, there’s nothing fucking wrong wiht things like EWGF when you have other options. God dammit all you guys wanna do is remove options and lessen enjoyment of games. Yeah the vast majority will never get down EWGF, but those of that do will enjoy being able to do it and those that won’t will enjoy playing whatever else they do. Holy fuck you guys keep talking like games have been so hard and tough execution wise games are dieing because of it. Execution has never been something that kills games and never will be, but taking execution out of the games will KILL games for a admittedly small crowd but a crowd nonetheless, please fuck off.

[xes]

i was thinking about sf2, or not really that, but whatever game/games before that in which these inputs originated

and i cant help but think that when game designers came up with the dp or the hadoken or even something like holding back to block, they chose those specific things in an effort to find a balance between difficulty of execution and effect on overall strategy-although they probably wouldnt have thought of it as strategy, more like “game quality” or “balance” even “fun-ness” (just some quality that would make people not stop putting quarters into their machine)-they probably also took into account things like how difficult something would be to program/implement

It’s always been my pet theory that the inputs were originally designed solely to reflect some kind of motion that the character was doing.

So hundred hands=punching a whole bunch, so mash punch
Lightning legs=whole bunch of kicks mash kick
Sonic Boom? Pull back your arms then snap them forward
Spinning piledriver? Its in the name, spin the stick!

Fireball and DP are weaker connections, but you can see the down-forward (or I can) in their arm motions.

 
Anyways I always end up thinking that's one of the great things about the way games developed.  All this stuff was just kind of thrown out there, and hours worth of strategy and theory and practice have developed it in ways the developers would never have considered!!

[j_mONSTERFACE]

snyip*

i know what you mean, and i get really into that idea too, its like how the words and symbols (spoken or written) were all originally direct depictions of things and letters and alphabets had direct symbolic meaning in relations to the folklore of the time

i think thats why it isnt good to single out specific game elements as being more important, or as lord raptor so passionately put it, people should not be trying to take away the execution barrier (something i personally, am firmly stuck behind). i would even go so far as to say its far less often a good idea to remove something as it is to fix it or add something to balance it

i like how fighterpedia made that point about how you can only really judge a fighting game on its “fightinggameyness”

and i agree, because it is not a matter of taste or aesthetic, its biological, or even human

[ukyo_rulz]

Yeah the vast majority will never get down EWGF, but those of that do will enjoy being able to do it and those that won’t will enjoy playing whatever else they do.

In most cases, “playing whatever else they do” means playing a different game. As a semi-serious Tekken player who has been trying to spread the game to other people for many years (my scene is more VS-series centric), I can tell you that the most common reason for a serious player of a different game to try Tekken and immediately drop it is an inability to EWGF. Everyone wants to play a Mishima, because they are “cool”. If they can’t EWGF then they can’t play a Mishima (same way that you can’t play Sakura if you can’t do her 1-frame link combo). And if they can’t play a Mishima then they don’t play Tekken. Simple.

So now the question is whether there are more people who would pick up the game because they can enjoy being able to EWGF while a lot of others can’t, as compared to the people who would not bother to play the game because there’s an execution barrier between them and the character they want to play as. Growing the community if of paramount importance, because only a large number of people actually buying games will ensure that games keep getting made in the future. Here’s what Harada has to say about it:

Maybe a game that relies more on reading your opponents strategy rather than replying on quick reflexes [could emerge]. Now that we have the current generation and everyone is playing online, the games have been arranged for online play but not built fundamentally for that. Perhaps moving forward games won’t be as quickly paced as they are now, so that you won’t be experiencing as much lag. Obviously, newer fighting games will be created with that in mind.

On a slightly related tangent, he also has this to say on button-mashing (the lowest possible level of execution, IMO):

Not everyone is a hardcore tournament player. Seventy percent are just your average player who wants to beat their brother, or their friend, or whoever.

We do get a lot of backlash from hardcore or high level players, but if they stepped into my shoes as a game developer and think of what’s good overall for the whole series, maybe they’ll start to realise that it isn’t such a bad thing.

And for those people still saying that less execution == less depth:

Games like FPS (first person shooters), the controls are not that difficult. You don’t have to memorize all of these inputs, compared to fighting games. Even so, these games have the same depth as a fighting game.

[Lord_Raptor]

Did you really just compare FGs to FPS? And yo a bunch of FPSs have high execution requirements, games like Tribes and Unreal. Fuck even CSS.

And yo fuck those guys dropping the game because they can’t EWGF from jump, if their not willing to put in any time fuck em. Probably wouldn’t have been worthwhile players int he first place.

[Negative-Zer0]

Cause you know, fighting games and FPSs play exactly the same so the execution argument can be made. Fuck, shit like Gunz and CS 1.6 don’t even fucking exist.

[Lord_Raptor]

I still can’t K-Style in Gunz yet

[jedpossum]

New subtitle for the thread instead of “where you stand” it should “read horrible analogies while people will say it isn’t part of the subject while they continue to do the same thing”. Okay, just “horrible analogies”.

[d3v]

in this argument, the genre which is car racing is being taken to another level of play through technology. Its getting harder to perform, not easier. Fighters haven’t been progressing the same. Instead of the game or racing getting harder, the game is getting easier. Racing isn’t being dumbed down so more people can compete.

and there is no racing rule that says when you’re losing, you can dump XF and now you’re faster than everyone else for 30 seconds.

analogies don’t work all the time.

Formula 1 has “DRS” where, if you’re 1 second behind the car in front of you in a specific “DRS” zone, you can hit a switch that adjusts the angle of a flap in your rear wing reducing the drag on your car allowing you to go faster than the car in front. It’s pretty much a comeback mechanic.

In any case, that wasn’t really the point, it’s more that having a competition change “rules” every now and then doesn’t really hurt.

[xes]

Did you really just compare FGs to FPS? And yo a bunch of FPSs have high execution requirements, games like Tribes and Unreal. Fuck even CSS.

No one of the desginers (I think that was his position, not 100%) of Blazblue did

[ukyo_rulz]

Did you really just compare FGs to FPS? And yo a bunch of FPSs have high execution requirements, games like Tribes and Unreal. Fuck even CSS.

I didn’t. Toshimichi Mori (Blazblue series producer) did.

And yo fuck those guys dropping the game because they can’t EWGF from jump, if their not willing to put in any time fuck em. Probably wouldn’t have been worthwhile players int he first place.

Their $60 is the same as yours. That’s all Namco cares about. Namco getting what it wants out of Tekken ensures future Tekken installments, which is what I care about. I want FG players to play lots of games, so companies would see that making more fighting games is worthwhile. Seth has this to say about it:

The market is crowded – not because there [are] so many fighters relative to other games, but because most fighters tend to require such a large time investment from their players. If the games are very hard to learn, but also need that time investment to shine, they have to compete with each other or even cannibalize their own player bases from previous installments. That fragments the player base across titles, and the fewer players playing any particular game mean that your skills (that investment) are less admired or valuable. That’s a dangerous time for the genre, because it risks collapsing under its own weight – if you’re the best at something nobody really plays, why bother?

[Lord_Raptor]

So people didn’t play alot of games when FG were generally less leneient on execution, yeah right.

And once again fuck people that won’t pick up Tekken cuz they can’t EWGF off the bat, they can still pick up a Mishima and work on other things till they’ve gotten their EWGF skills up. You make it seem like it’s impossible to get to a decent level with a Mishima if you can’t EWGF. Speaking of Mishima’s still waiting on someone to get down Heihachi’s OWGF.

[ukyo_rulz]

So people didn’t play alot of games when FG were generally less leneient on execution, yeah right.

I’m more inclined to take Seth’s word than yours, since he has an insider’s perspective on FG development and by comparison your argument begins and ends with “yeah right”.

You make it seem like it’s impossible to get to a decent level with a Mishima if you can’t EWGF.

Are you kidding me? If you can’t EWGF with a Mishima I will body you every time and Tekken’s not even my main game. So many things you can’t punish. So much less damage you do. If you can’t EWGF you should be playing a different character, unless you don’t care about winning at all. A Mishima with no EWGF is even less of a threat than a Sentinel on point in UMVC3. It’s one of those essential tactics that make or break a character.