Do you mean like an ambiguous cross up? You don’t always have to land on the same side, switch it up a bit.
Yes,i mean like an ambiguous non crossup lol
How?If I throw the kunai early I land on the same side where i jumped from but then I cant followup with a combo
If this is the only way …I think its just my timing that is wrong lol
I’m going to be working on some safe jump/option select situations later today.
It seems that if we just have sj. kunai from a neckbreaker, people are going to learn to look at where she is and know which way to block the kunai. So to cultivate and keep the kunai fresh, we need some more options to do from situations.
I didnt do a lot of testing today, but after a Raida outside of the corner, dash up and sj. lk. I think this hits meaty and is a safe jump. I’ll test it later though.
Yes! That’s exactly what I’m thinking CoosCoos. I’ve been working on more options then just the typical vortex because people have caught onto the vortex already and it’s easy to get out of with proper blocking and it doesn’t leave Ibuki at a huge advantage either unlike Akuma. Jab pressure, tick throws, and some unsafe command dash mix ups is what seems like she has after a blocked safe kunai vortex so we need to experiment on more pressure tools after a knockdown then just a kunai.
You must be doing it wrong. If you SJ and throw a kunai you should almost always be landing on the far side of the opponent. The trick to getting it to not cross them up is to throw the kunai earlier in your jump.
The best way to test your set ups is to record them into the training mode dummy and try to block them your self.
Are you sure? Put the dummy on auto-block and you’ll see it’ll always block the Kunai the right way, even if you do it perfectly (it’s not that hard anyway).
blanka : ex up ball has successfully gotten out of the neckbreaker(superjump) one many times, as well as hit me everytime, even when i try to time kunai so that i’m ABOVE him when he’s up.
guy: ex tatsu seems to get out of it and hit you as well
balrog: ex dash upper seems to work
bison: ex devil reverse / stomp?(i assume stomp works but i dunno if it’ll whiff)
Raida has been working very well for me. As for the vortex… I do lk dash or mk dash after tsumiji depending on the characters into a jump imediately canceled by the kunai which depending on either height or timing could land directly in front or crossup the opponent. In both occassions you are able to combo into the TC afterwards. If done correctly it is a fairly ambiguous crossup. Ill see if I can post videos later.
When I try to vortex Dudley, his EX DP auto corrects and gets me. Did I throw my kunai too late?
CoosCoos and alexlkd have the right idea, finding new ways to execute the vortex so it’s not quite as predictable…especially when you’re dealing with those matchups that have an easier escape than some.
Funny alex should mention the LK dash as that’s close to what I’ve been practicing, except after the traditional neckbreaker instead of Tsumuji. Here’s a quick video showing it crossup but it can be forced to land in front with a timing adjustment, for extra ambiguity.
Ibuki Vortex Setup Idea [Neckbreaker, LK CD, instant low kunai crossup]
[media=youtube]Vef_qgfwQm8[/media]
I would assume your timing just sucks. Should be stuffing out EX dp. Haven’t tried it much against Dudley but I’d be surprised if his EX dp gives him free escape.
You know, Ibuki really doesn’t have a Vortex. I think it’s time for the community to understand that wake up kunai is not a safe option all the time. Also, a true vortex is multiple safe options on meaty, which Ibuki has no safe options on meaty. Please drop this vortex talk and thread because it’s simple not true that she has one.
In all reality vortex is really just another word for a mix up of options on wake up. The term was originally coined by people on the east coast during the Marvel days.
Ibuki has plenty of safe options on wake up. Safe jump crosses with any of her cross ups and f+MK on wake up when timed meaty can be effectively a safe jump as well.
well honestly akuma doesnt really have that many safe options on his vortex either… its just that the options that he does have are all very hard to get out of when spaced and timed perfectly right even when you know what is coming… but its possible.
the hard part about akumas vortex is knowing which followup hes going to do.
IBUKI HAS THE SAME THING, i have all kinds of dash mixups to throw out on people on wakeup after a forawrd throw, plus i can opt to do a crossup or non crossup kunai on my forwrd throw as well.
i have a bunch of mixups after a landed ex neckbreaker, and after a back throw…
i’m currently learning a bevy of mixups off of 3rd hit of tsumuji untech KD after a bnb.
she has more options than just kunai mixups, ALOT more.
-dime
Akuma had 4 safe wake up options in vanilla: Dive Kick; Palm; Cross-up Tatsu; and DP > FADC, so I’ll just assume you never played Akuma. What’s important is not knowing what an actually vortex is (Although it would help), but having people realize that kunai on wake up isn’t safe nor gives you an advantage. I’m just trying to save people time on mastering a maneuver that is useless, but if you want to continue the belief, so be it.
SJC LP meaty kunai on wake up has different strengths of safeness and options depending on the character but for the most part it’s risky to do a lot of reversals without getting comboed once the knife is meaty. Ryu and Sagat can’t do anything but block. Even when they block u still get frame advantage.
none of those are safe versus ryu unless the spacing is specific, even then the demonflip is the only SAFE one versus him, he can autocorrect dp if he feels a crossup tatsu coming (he can also cr.mk underneath it and srk fadc >ultra… but meh), he can dp a palm unless the palm is done with a timing that it will wiff… but good ryus can see that.
crossup tatsu can be autocorrected by many moves. sfaejump demonflipkick against other characters has a specific timing and lends itself to no mixups through using divekick and df throw in conjunction. cause df throw has a completely different timing from safejump df divekick… good players can see it.
akumas best overall vortex option is wiffed safejump timing df palm> land> crouching shorts…
which is also beatable easily if the opponent anticipates it…
crossup tatsu is his most used vortex option cause no one punishes it and it “becomes” a free guess…
that dont mean that its not punishable though.
but dont think that i dont see what you are saying, they are VERY hard to punish… practically have to be psychic against a good vortex. but thats what a vortex is… there is no one solution out of akumas mixups and there are a shitload of mixups in it, WHICH CAN ALL BE COUNTERED, but themselves counter many of the opponents attempts to stop it… which is why its so good.
akuma only has a few COMPLETELY safe options from his vortex and i’m prety sure they all involve safejumping with palm or divekick… throw cant be done with safejump timing, while remaining safe cause of the hangtime that he gets from a wiffed df grab… maybe on some poor characters… but not most i’m sure.
but yeah nothing is SAFE in sf4, if there was something that was absolutely safe… everyone would be using that shit.
and even if something was completely safe, chances are that its just blockable like akumas divekick versus characters that are easily safejumped… so if he chooses the safest option everytime he will just get blocked all day until he wants to do something more fruitful but more risky as well.
bla bla yadda yadda.
-dime
Agreed. If you thought df dive kicks were a safe okizeme option, I’m surprised you’ve managed to see the flaws in kunai setups.
On a related note, it seems like FAing the kunai could be a get out of jail free card for characters that didn’t already have one. I doubt this will become widespread quickly, but for characters with good back dashes this looks pretty viable. I havn’t tested it very extensively, but against Ibuki at least her FA will even dodge cross up kunais(like they whiff if you FA where they would have hit if they had blocked or not).
If you are going to make claims that the various kunai on wakeup setups have NO safe instances, or simply that Ibuki has NO safe options on someone’s wakeup, please provide evidence.
You can’t focus attack a perfect LP SJ kunai. A meaty perfect SJ kunai will kill the start up of your focus. That’s why focus attack doesn’t work against meaty jump ins because focus attacks have start up frames before they can actually be used. If u try to focus attack on wake up you’re just going to get full comboed. Technically characters like Chun Li can back dash on the wake up to get “out” of the vortex but she still gets hit by the kunai and put in an airborne falling state which u can just mix up more with afterwards.
The main reason why people think a lot of random things like focus attack and blanka electricity will beat SJ kunai is because you guys are not timing the kunais so it is meaty. Meaty kunai will only straight up lose to specific EX reversals (like Dee Jay’s or Guy’s EX anti airs). Everything else will force you to at least be hit by the kunai that doesn’t involve blocking.