thanks for your spreadsheets mingo!
Ok I think the vortex spreadsheet is finished. It’s fairly accurate I guess. If anybody finds some stuff that should be on there or if some characters actually aren’t vortexable (I didn’t test every single possible move, EX and non EX, etc.) go ahead and let tell us.
Some stuff to note: some characters have to burn an EX to get out. This may or may not be what you want (is it beneficial for you to continuously vortex them to burn their meter?). For some of these characters, you may want to never attempt vortexing unless you’re very good at your timing such that you can purposely have the kunai not crossup. If it’s a crossup kunai, stuff like EX headbutt/tomahawk will autocorrect and hit you.
Other characters can get out with non damaging ways, like Abel’s EX roll, Rufu’s stupid EX Jesus Kick. and every character’s teleports. You may or may not be able to option select this, especially the instant teleport ones like Dictator/Seth/Dhalsim.
Also, some other characters can get out with non damaging ways, but the move has a long (and punishable, with neckbreaker) recovery, like Honda’s Sumo Splash or Fei Long’s Chicken Wings. I wasn’t sure whether to declare them as vortexable or not.
Also something strange happened with Seth’s U2. For some reason Ibuki made the sound that she got hit, and she was in the hit animation for maybe a second, but she didn’t take any damage lol.
Lastly, one universal way of getting out is focusing the kunai and then dashing toward where Ibuki jumped from. Though depending on the dash recovery, and how good your reflexes are, usually you can punish it with like a reaction sweep or something, I think.
I personally would like to see a character like Honda listed as vortexable because if u say no u make people assume there’s no reason to kunai pressure on a character that really can’t do shit about it. The word no should only imply that kunai vortex is not worth doing at all. Nothing wishy washy like “well no, but yes if u know how to punish their mashed reversal”. Mike Ross did nothing but block against Buktooth’s kunai vortex and I can almost assure you it wasn’t because Mike didn’t know that he could mash buttslam out. A damned scrub on Xbox Live has the brain power to try and mash out. The issue is if and when u do mash out all it takes a HP neck break to kill any buttslam but the LK buttslam which gets killed by sweep after it whiffs. So maybe u need a section that explains what u can punish with after the reverse is used. Wouldn’t be good to have people read the list and go “well guess I can only j.LK/MK Honda”.
Ok sure good point.
I am unsure exactly what punishes what, as I can’t really have two dummies recorded or something. I would have to test with a real human to reversal out of the vortex for me and then I can test reaction punishes.
So unless it’s well known that say reaction neckbreaker punishes Sumo Splash, I’m just going to assume it’s unpunishable due to not long enough recovery and too far to punish, like Abel’s EX roll.
Well it’s well known for me because I do it ALL the time. I do it against online Hondas I do it against my friend’s solid offline Honda (who mains Blanka and trained in Japan with Mizoteru). So regardless of skill level of the player I consistently am able to force Hondas to do nothing but block during my kunai vortexes. I’m just looking for one thing basically, which is if they mash out with sumo splash. Specifically it comes down to whether or not they did LK buttslam. If they did LK buttslam I have the stick held on down and my right hand on the HK button to sweep. If they do any other buttslam I have plenty of time (at least for me any way) to just reaction HP neck break. So basically if it isn’t a quick LK buttslam I just choose the only other option which is to break their neck. Not that hard to do with any kind of practice. The recovery is just too long on all of his buttslams for you to not punish with something. It’s hard enough to knock Honda down as it is so u might as well get the most out of it. It’s true that u can’t really set up sweep/neck break punishing a buttslam after a kunai vortex in training mode because it requires too much turn by turn play between two people. Though I’ve tested it extensively enough against real Honda players that I can pretty much confirm.
The difference with Abel is that his EX roll has quicker start up and recovery along with throwing him away from the vortex. It’s like if Honda’s LK buttslam threw him to the whole other end of the screen. Then Honda for sure wouldn’t be able to be trapped by vortex. Though because Honda’s LK buttslam has enough recovery and keeps him close to you a sweep is basically guaranteed.
Well that’s great and all, but tbh I haven’t played many good Hondas, hence why I just assumed he wasn’t vortexable. If you let us know your findings on who else can/can’t get out of vortex, I’d be happy to change the chart.
Well so far what I mainly would add is that Gief’s best option to get out of kunai vortex is probably EX German Suplex (because of the armor). It’s like if Gouken had a counter that threw you afterwards instead of hitting you. So you basically have no choice but to get grabbed since the armor parries in both directions. There’s a specific timing to it but it works. I remember trying to set up in training mode Gief lariating out of kunai vortex and it seemed Gief generally had trouble reversing out of a meaty kunai. I think it only works if u don’t get it super super meaty. Otherwise I think he’s forced to block. Though I haven’t tried it enough to make sure. I’m also kinda convinced on that since I played online against IFC Zangief’s Zangief (top 8 placer at Final Round) and whenever I tried the SJ kunai vortex on him real meaty he just got hit everytime. I kinda disregarded myself from using the kunai vortex on him much since I was afraid of messing up the timing and being lariated out. Though I figured since he didn’t know about EX German escape I would just try it out like he was Ryu and see what happened. Unless he was just trying to block it the right way he kept getting hit everytime. I would almost assume as a Gief player he probably tried to lariat out at least one of the times with no success.
The only other thing I would add right now is about Viper. Now of course Viper won’t be too much of an issue cuz to this day barely anyone uses her online or offline. Though if u do run into one I did some tests and it seems Viper can be vortexed but it’s kinda wishy washy. I guess overall it would constitute as a no since if a Viper player learned to see whether or not you threw a meaty Kunai they could change their reversal game based on what you did. Like if u throw a kunai earlier than real meaty Viper CAN NOT reverse with any special move. Strange but true. It mainly has to do with how long it takes for all of her reversals to start up and how large they make her hit box at start up. EX seismo (even the feint) makes her hit box huge and the long start up frames mean that u hit her during her vulnerable frames of the EX seismo/feint and she gets hit for free. If she tries HP TK same thing. Viper’s HP Knuckle takes 7 frames to start up, makes her hit box huge and loses the invincibility once she goes up in the air. So the kunai will tag her in the feet as she’s flying. Burn kick same deal. Takes 23 frames to start up so the kunai will just hit her long before. Though since kunai makes Viper airborne on frame one I believe she just resets in the air. EX burn kick just whiffs and u can punish. Though if u do an early kunai she can easily backdash, focus backdash out.
Then on the turn around if u do a perfect meaty kunai pretty much all of her reversals except EX burn kick get her out for free. Though doing a meaty kunai stops her from backdashing out and makes it very difficult to focus dash out. Focus dashing out of a meaty kunai requires real precise reverse timing and if u screw it up u get hit for free. So u have this sort of mind game with the vortex where u have to force her to guess/react to whether u did a meaty or non meaty kunai. Which u can use to your advantage based on patterns. If you notice the Viper player likes to mash EX seismo/HP knuckle reversals on wake up then throw earlier kunais to beat the mashes. If you notice they simply block on wake up then continue to do meaty kunais since they can’t backdash or barely focus dash a meaty kunai and give yourself free pressure. Overall this mind game is somewhat risky though so in the end you’re probably better off just using j.LK crosses until u get a good tendency for what the Viper player does on wake up.
**I do have a just curious question about characters like Guy and Dee Jay. ** Now I notice in your list it says that Dee Jay can be vortexed. Now once either of those characters get EX meter if u do a meaty kunai I know for sure both of their DP’s will bypass them through the kunai. Though since Guy’s EX DP has more recovery u can kinda change the timing/angle on your kunai so that u land just as he flies up in the air and can punish him on the way down. With Dee Jay though…at least from my experience if u try to hit him with a real meaty kunai on wake up his EX carnival kicks will just blow you out of the air and give him a free out, do decent damage to you and throw u to the other end of the screen. All for trying to take advantage of him on wake up. Is there a way to use your kunais on Dee Jay so that EX carnival kicks (charge down, u+K) don’t just blast you in your face?
With Guy/DeeJay, you can definitely change the timing of the kunai and your jump to suit your needs. For both characters I was definitely able to get a cross up kunai on them, and still have their EX dp’s whiff. I’m not 100% sure about the timing but it did feel like I had to throw the kunai slightly earlier than usual.
Hmm, this is interesting. The same seems to work for Boxer/THawk. It seems at a very very specific timing, you can make it so their down charge antiair move will whiff instead of autocorrect.
Not sure what to make of this lol. Maybe they are vortexable after all.
guys could some one tell me how to perfectly control the kunai crossing up or non crossing up while making it look ambiguous?a guy said you got to use lp kunai for cross up and hp kunai very late to make them block normally and land on the other side,is this true?please help thanks.
Um if you throw a late hp kunai I’m pretty sure it’s just going to whiff, unless your opponent has a giant hitbox or something. Really it’s just finding the right mix of timing your jump, and timing the kunai during your jump. Just keep testing it in training mode until you got it.
Thanks for the speadsheet mingo
HP Kunai’s bullshit. You just have to superjump really late, and throw the kunai early. Like Mingo said though, it just takes practice.
I was tinkering around in training mode trying to find a way to consistently hit from the front with my kunais. I tried different ways to time it and such but nothing was consistent enough. I eventually got it down, and realized the trick is to simply aim for the feet.
As long as you hit your opponent below the waist (preferably right in the toes), you can combo just about anything off the kunai. You can even use MP or HP kunais as hit confirms as long as you hit them below the waist.
I’m not sure if this is old news, but I personally just discovered it for myself and thought it might help someone else out.
tl;dr
AIM FOR THE TOES.
^ Are you sure your opponent cannot simply dp his/her way out with you doing that?
I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure you risk getting DP’d any time you mix up with a non-cross-up kunai on wake up. I’d have to check. In any case, the idea of aiming below the waist with LP, MP, or HP kunais applies to situations even outside of okizeme such as whiff punishing and catching crouch tech attempts. Againsts non DP characters, the idea of aiming below the waist can be used say, after a Raida, or any knockdown really, not just neckbreakers.
I think you risk getting a dp everytime you do an early kunai. It doesn’t matter if it crosses up or not. If Ibuki is not hovering over her opponent’s head on their wakeup, but instead clearly on one side or the other (dp’s can easily autocorrect) then you’d probably risk getting dped.
Unless you raida-ed them into the corner, I don’t think you can get any good vortex setups off a raida.
How can you properly practice the vortex in training mode when the computer always guesses right on block?
The idea of the vortex is to make the opponent guess, but the computer always blocks the correct side, so all you’re doing it practicing throwing kunais and block strings.
If you want to practice just against a standing comp with the vortex you need to set it to random block so that way it’ll be more like a guessing game. That way, the computer wont block all the strings, and will allow you to work on everything all at once.
Another way to practice the vortex to see if your doing it properly is by setting Ibuki to the comp, and you as another character trying to break free of the vortex.
I have trouble vortexing small characters while super jumping
particularly IBUKI
I cant seem to get the timing exactly for it to cross her up must of the time it hits just right next to her feet. I find it easier to normal jump against smaller characters but I do know Super jumping is safer.
I can do it on the large and normal sized characters
but for characters like Ibuki the normal immediate super jump and throw at the apex of the jump doesn’t work for me
it seems it needs to be thrown earlier.
Is it me or does lag online sometimes make it able for somebody to grab you before you hit your TC after a kunai cross-up? Or is there actually time to do it? I’ve never had it happen offline, but online it happens all the time. I’m wondering if it’s me or the small window of lag.