Looks like you have no idea what you’re talking about in SF … Ryu is probably one of the hardest characters to use anywhere above low level play.
I’m reading Ver’s “How to Improve” guide and it’s hella good so far. It was made for BW, but the majority of it applies to SC2 as well. I highly recommend it.
That hits the nail on the head; SF is what we know best on this forum, since its SRK. Even the best SC players in this thread pale in comparison to what the top level players in SC are right now, so even all this discussion we’re having right now is really talking about mid level play. We’re just not qualified to know the complete ins and outs; what is clear is that ZvT is not NEARLY as bad as it seems.
The problem is you can’t play zerg the same way at all as you can terran and expect to win, it’s an entirely different beast.
We used to get a bunch of people to play and other people observe, and rotate in and out and stuff. I’m up for doing that myself, I just have a hard time actually finding time to play lately. I’ll play my Z vs your T and we can see how it plays out. For the record I never play Z at all so it should be interesting haha
Really? As opposed to say, Gen? Anywho, this is getting way off topic… It seems that not only am I NOT qualified to talk about SC, but I should shut my mouth when talking about SF…
Banelings cost gas and zerglings only for it to die. I can understand that they do nice damage but the fact that I have to sacrifice units to do damage as well as gas which can go to making more roaches/hydras/mutas have to go because I need to bust down a wall. Banelings tend to get sniped from most ranged units and then just fucking die to splash. Oh well there goes all that gas for doing NOTHING! Unless I micro the shit out of the units, most cases they go to waste. Oh yeah and I need to upgrade their speed so they can roll if not they go even slower.
For plague, I meant it would be easier to bust into a terran’s natural base and expansions choose they decide to wall themselves in. With plague, even the mightiest structures and units will go down with a quick hit from mutas. If i usually scout all around with a drone first to see if I am going to get early bunker rushed. Then try to pump out zerglings to kill the scvs or at least try to not make them expand that much. I’m sorry but I’m going to have to disagree with you about the defiler. You need multiple defilers to chain dark swam since it costs 100 to use, so at most you got two shots for your cover. It also eats splash damage for free, so even then siege tanks can snipe them out.
Then plague costs a stupid amount of 150 energy which can you can’t even chain a dark swarm/plague unless you upgrade the unit itself.
Terrans have a variety of ground units hence the split of upgrades. They also have more armored units than Zerg do. Marauder, Thor, Siege Tank, Hellion. You can say technically 3 of them since generally the hellion sucks. But they can get the other 3 fairly earlier opposed to the ultralisk which is the only other armored unit aside from the Roach. Also picking armor first? I want to be able to choose attack like the other armies can but I will be splitting them up between having weak ass zerglings or ranged attacks. Toss and Terran don’t have to sacrifice their attacks at ALL.
Another thing: Zerg does not have an aoe splash unit and are extremely vunerable to it. Granted this has been around since BW but at least I had dark swarm and if necessary instant death with flying queens in spawn Broodling.
Ultralisks and cracklings are great when unanswered. They won’t be plowing through shit against anything with aoe splash or air anti-ground stuff. Zerg REALLY has a weakness for air units. I really thought the corruptor was able to take the on the Devourer’s role as the Zerg’s anti-air but I was really disappointed. Corrupt only hits one target, requires energy and it’s own anti-air isn’t that particulary strong against other air units. Void Rays once charged can decimate them [then again they can kill ANYTHING fully charged], Phoneix’s can shoot and fly, giving them the ability to still kill them without taking a hit. Then the viking which can go to the ground to avoid getting smacked.
As DaDesiCanadian and amro said, the payoff is not that amazing when playing Zerg. I know when I fuck up with Zerg plenty and I pay for it. With Terran or Protoss, I can afford a couple mistakes and I can still get a win.
As opposed to most other characters really. How many Ryu’s were Top 8 at Evo?
Not many, Top 8 had a nice mix of characters, which is a testament to how balanced the game is. Still, i’d assume that there are more people out there playing Ryu than say, Abel or Cammy, simply because of the familiarity. Which leads me back to Terrans.
I’m down for some SC 1v1… I don’t care how hard I get pwned either.
Catchafire/835
The grass is always greener
Funny how in your examples your opponents always have the counter to what you have, considering zergs advantage is tech switching an in instant.
Zerg have Banelings for AOE, as well as Mutas (or do you not count their bounce effect?), ultralisks have splash damage as well, infestors can do AOE damage with an immobilize too.
It’s easy to cherry pick examples about how your race doesn’t have X if you actually discount all the examples where they do have X.
Yes, we get it, Zerg is different than the other races. This is good, not bad, they don’t need to be mirror images of the other races to be competitive.
It also doesn’t help that zerg is fundamentally the most different from how they were in BW, and way different from how Terran plays in the campaign. This alone puts them at a disadvantage early on since nobody knows what the hell to do.
Edit:
What people are playing, and what people are Winning with, are two completely different things.
I recently bought the Scott Pilgram comic books (got in today), so i’m looking forward to reading them, then movie/game, so hopefully that can quell my SC addiction a little bit.
I hear you Pimp, and I also love diversity among the different races… It’s one of the things that I love about the SC universe. I’m also sure that any
"disadvantages" that are being complained about through out the community will be addressed by Blizzard, or some form of countering whatever FOTM strat will be answered by the community.
Yes they’re tricky to use but by the time you have fungal growth + blings your opponent has targets that if hit correctly are going to be worth more than the gas you spent on the banes. Yes they’re intensely tricky to manage but they can be just as good as avoiding sniping as vice versa.
You’re only looking at the Terran match up. Sure if it operated just like before then Hellions/Tanks could still hit the banelings for free but toss are limited to colossi/high templar which is an entirely different and dedicated tech investment. I’d cry OP as Toss if you gave Z both dark swarm and banelings for sure. Watch as your entire mineral line gets owned for free :(.
You act as if it’s detrimental to get armor over attack and everyone else ‘gets’ to do it. News flash, if you’re going up against mass marines/lings/zealots as any race armor is the better upgrade to get anyways because you benefit more from +1 armor vs. fast attacking units than +1 attack. Attack nor defense is inherently better but a lot of players realize they can kill things a tad faster with attack upgrade which just sounds cooler.
So?
Actually mutalisk+corruptor make for probably the best air in the game. First of all, they are extremely cost effective against void rays, maybe not charged up, but then where were your scouts letting you know if they were on the move in the first place? Comparing mutas to like any other flier just makes me laugh because of how bad every other flying unit is by comparison. They counter all terran air until bcs and even then if you scout you don’t even have to tech up just start building corruptors. For protoss it’s a free win against vrs and even though mutas get beaten by phoenixes corruptors don’t and phoenixes are strictly aa, so they then have to depend on the graviton shenanigans. Carriers/mother ships get owned by the opponent simply having a brain.
Yes, Zerg is really hard to win with, I completely agree. At the same time…I don’t know that I’ve heard any really great ideas on how to fix them.
Are they going to make changes to the multi-player part (rebalance/change unit attributes a bit, etc)before the expansion?
Bashiok (a Blizz employee) said the plan was to balance the game before the expansion.
The ONLY time a competitive game will be “balanced” is after YEARS of playing and having the meta-game figured out to its very DNA, OR both sides have exact same units. Look at most of the other RTSs, they might have different races but most of their units are just the same cookie cutter the other races have.
Look at the history of BW. Yes any of the races could win at any give time, but in the beginning there was the dragon age (protoss) winning a good chunk, then swarm season (zerg) claiming many titles, and now its mech imba (terran). And the game is still evolving! not very much but it’s been years since that game came out. I dont hear top players bitch and moan about supposed race imbalances and then switch races to try and win. They stick with their race and work hard to win. Only ones I can think of are Tossgirl (not really a top player, but was in the female division) and possibly Bisu (not exactly sure on this one).
Thats the difference between you and them, ie “good” players. They are trying to win the game with their skills no matter how much of it they need, not trying to have the game win for them.
Its easy to say why cant my team have John Stockton at point, Shaq at center, Kareem at PF, MJ as SG, and Steve Kerr waiting at the top (yes bitches I said Kerr! highest % of 3-pointers made) gotta work with what you have man!
Yo, anyone got any guest passes? I need a couple and if you guys aren’t using them, that’d be great. Thanks in advance.
This.
And lol for saying Ryu/Guile are imba in any iteration of SF. I play random now in SC2 (though I started with Protoss) until I find a race that really fits my playstyle so please, stfu. The game is fine as it is for only being out for a month. New strats and approaches are being discovered each tournament and if Blizzard were to just change shit around for scrubs, the balance would get even more out of hand.
People cried about protoss 2 gate opening against zerg when it first came out. Guess what? Players adapted and now a protoss that opens 2 gate will be in deep shit if he over commits to his initial push. People cried about reaper opening TvZ before IEM. Idra/Dimaga showed you can defend against it and proceed to mid game with a definite chance of winning. Theory-crafting will only get you so far and you need to put in the games and stop whining if you want to get better. Seriously, if you’re in silver and losing to a bronze Terran, that says more about your skill than the supposed “imba” between the races.
Yeah that 5 rax reaper was so good. My friend started doing it and hasn’t lost a tvz in high diamond yet. Dimaga even taught Morrow that build so the world can see how op tvz is. Maybe thats why he looked so happy at the ceremony lol. There’s a rumor that Blizzard might not release a balance patch fix until the expansion which Banshiok denied but I wouldn’t be surprised if it came to this, especially if it’s something drastic like new units introduced.
The thing with the rax reaper is IEM showed that it is possible to defend against it and end up in a regular/disadvantaged mid game, both very viable options for zerg to win. Idra lost his finals games because he made some bad macro/micro decisions (he defended against the reaper opening every game… Morrow just out played him in a macro game afterwards). Many of the zerg players tore through Terrans except Morrow and even they used the 3-5 rax reaper strat. The only real problem with the opening is it might make the matchup stale as it is a very safe opening against Zerg so why not do it?
I beat a platinum zerg player just now, woot…
Lost Temple - Catchafire vs. Zephy - Replays - SC2Replayed.com
And me losing to a platinum terran player the game before, him using reaper strat, and calling me a “***” at the end… lolz
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63595-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
like i said before it sounds like its possible to beat terran at the lower levels, you just have to work way harder. sure in diamond 700+ points it will be hard, but that’s way high up there. it sounds like zerg is one of the hardest races to play. that’s not necessarily a bad thing. you’ll learn more about the game in the process, while many terran players are just doing the same brain dead thing over and over and not evolving. i’m looking at this from a fighting game mentality. the only way to get better is to lose humiliating losses. even if you pick low tier you can still win, especially at the non pro gamer level because opponents make mistakes that you can capitalize on.
and unlike in fighting games where if you pick a low tier you have to work super hard and still lose, blizzard patches its games. once things are tweaked to help zerg out, since your fundamentals are better, you’ll win for free. it’d be like if you mained dan in sf4 and all of a sudden he got gdlk pokes, full screen fireball, and a dozen ways to set up ultra