I like the idea of high stakes ST. I think for us older ST players its more about getting the time off work and away from the family to travel to these events. I’m more than willing to put down $100-$200 for an entry fee for well organized ST tourney with top competition. IMHO, ST is serious business and should be held to a higher standard. But, I guess the flip side is the shitty economy and people not having the extra cash to blow.
How many of the already tiny pool of players will pay that? There are already people complaining about $40-50 fees. You might wind up with a four man tournament.
High entry/venue fees work for SFIV/MvC3 because those games are so popular, they can still get a huge number of players to join even though these days, non-sponsored players have virtually no shot at winning . Since ST has such a small player base now, I think it’s vital to attract as many potential players as possible.
I think the best way to attract them is to have small tournaments with large payouts that consist almost entirely of good players. It demonstrates high level techniques and counters, lets us play 3/5 instead of 2/3, and is enticing that you only have to win a handful of matches to take home hundreds of dollars. It’s also good to be as different as we can be from the 100+ man sf4 and mvc3 tournaments, otherwise we just look like inferior versions of newer games. ST is definitely for a more refined player, and the high entry fees convey that. I don’t think just being there along side the newer games is going to bring in new players. I think our best strategy is to create an environment and mystique around ST that brings in the real players. The ones who will dedicate themselves to join the ranks of the elite, from otochun and kusumondo to valle and choi. The ones who will pay $50 to enter because they think they’re hot shit. Not the hordes of players we have now that expect and are perfectly content with going 0-2. As far as tournaments are concerned, I’ll take quality over quantity any day.
I would love to test this out with a $100 entry fee ST tourney, pre-paid registration required. If you get less than 10 players cancel it and refund the entry fee’s.
Even 4 players would be ok with $100 entry. It could then be a round robin.
P.S. Why weren’t you at SB?
True 4 player round robin would be cool.
I had full intentions of coming but some family issues got in the way at the last moment. I’m so pissed I missed out on the fun this year.
I would like to see more people enjoying the game and everyone having a good time. But it’s not like we can’t get both.
Like the mvc2 tourney last year, they have a regular tourney (lots of comp too), and they have exhibition MM matches (super hype).
I think SB could arrange for 4-8 man high stakes ST exhibition round robin on the side (different day than the regular tourney maybe?) with $100 buy-in winner takes all.
For 4 players you can easily have damdai / steventren / roybisel / cole. That will be hype to watch.
That’s dumb. A new player could be really good, doesn’t mean that they know that themselves, if they’ve entered very few tourneys, if any. No reasonable person expects to just start entering tourneys and winning immediately, and no reasonable person likes wasting money. Not everyone has experience. The only way to practice your game is by blowing away $50 to the same guys who’ve entered and won a bunch of tourneys already? The elitist attitude is exactly why people won’t ever play this game. There’s no reason why anyone shouldn’t be able to enjoy the game and get some experience under their belt. High stakes tourneys nullify that. I know for sure I wouldn’t enter a high stakes tourney with you and some japanese killers in it, even if I thought I was a good player, cause that’s too risky. ST is too fast paced and you can be eliminated before you know it. If it was EVO or SBO qualifiers or something I traveled to I wouldn’t mind, but for a local major that’s just silly.
This might be the best compromise to get the best of both worlds.
Have the ST tournament with a normal entry fee and a special separate event for hyped money matches. You have to be careful how you do it though and I would suggest doing traditional money matches instead of another tournament because the MM tournament might steal all the thunder from the normal tournament and make it somewhat pointless to run.
Of course, these are just suggestions. People are going to run their tournaments how they want but I think we all want to see the community succeed as a whole.
I’m digging the idea of a $20-$30 entry free for any ST tournament. It’s a pretty good number to get more new players (myself included) to start going to more offline tournaments while offering a decent payout for top players and show up. Sure you could have a high-rollers tournament every time, like Steve Tren wants, but you’re eventually just going to see the same old faces over and over and over again without injecting any new blood into ST. It’s difficult to keep the community going if newer players just keep getting bodied at tournaments, AND losing a ton of money in the process.
I disagree with only that 1 doom-and-gloom segment of your post. From all I can see, ST is about as healthy now as it was back in 1994 with similar turnouts when the price is normal. Otherwise, spot-on.
I believe we discussed this very topic and agreed that a reasonable $10-20 tourney at majors and straight-up money matches for anything else would be best. Each money match can be hyped up that way and it wouldn’t detract from the official tourney either. Those who are actively interested in setting up an mm at the next tourney can just contact each other. And money matches are the fastest way to earn money where the winner gets 100% and everyone agrees on the amount without being forced to spend a lot just to support a game they enjoy.
A huge buy-in works best when trying to weed out the competition, not when trying to maintain and possibly grow a scene. Walking comes before running. I don’t want ST to become inaccessible to younger players due to price. That would reflect very poorly on our stewardship of the current situation (“oh, ST was doing fine as a competitive game for 17 years and then players suddenly decided to raise the entry fees so that only elite, rich, or spendthrifty players would enter, and everything collapsed as a result”). A high entry fee may even prevent good players of more modest means from attempting to try. For some, the full entry and venue fee may represent over a day’s work and these players have to put personal circumstances before competition regardless of how well they may play.
If we ever get plenty of strong players who think they can compete (a la the WSOP), then I might support raising the stakes. I’m sort of surprised the SF4 and MVC3 scenes haven’t increased their entry fees already (props to SB for making $20 a standard), but it’s likely because the organizers there are just as cautious of tripping as we should be. Season’s Beatings was a good litmus test for which side of the price curve we were on: whether a higher entry fee would predominantly increase the excitement or hamper turnout. The latter seems to be the case, although it may not be a bad thing if SB remains as the sole high-stakes ST tourney in the US.
As for the benefits of having top-level comp, most casual viewers don’t really understand the game mechanics anyway. It’s hard enough explaining the nuances of pokes to folks who’ve played the game for a year or 2. The main folks with any interest in what’s going on would likely have entered the tourney anyway. Do I think most of the players that will only enter at lower prices will bother to learn the game in-depth? No, but I think a scene that’s sustainable is more worthwhile than having a scene of only a dozen players, all of whom can make it to the top. It’s indeed a matter of opinion, and I don’t mind a mix of quality and quantity.
Finally, since when was money the primary motivator for attending tourneys? Top JP players certainly didn’t need any of that motivation. Pride, competition, and recognition were enough. Providing solid compensation is definitely something to aspire to but I don’t think we’re at that point yet. A $50 entry fee wouldn’t really concern me but, for the good of the scene, I’d say that only works as an exception and not as the standard.
I was actually going to mention pretty much the same thing earlier. I don’t know if it’s because some ST players see the big money now in SFIV/MvC3 tournaments and they want a bigger payout also or if they feel like ST tourneys need it to keep up with the Joneses but I completely agree. Japanese tournaments are definitely for pride, competition, and respect. But American tournaments have always based on money to a degree. I would like to mention again that one thing we felt that would be better for both ReveLAtions and EVO tournaments is to have a slightly flatter payout structure and deeper payouts in order to entice players who might be on the fence to enter.
Also, ReveLAtions had a lower entry fee ($20) but attracted 36 players. Compare that to a high rollers tournament ($50) that gets 16 players and the pot comes out to be nearly the same. $720 vs $800. But a lower entry fee should attract more players, which is a good thing.
I had a blast watching the st high stakes tournament. Looking forward to joining in on the next one. Much love to the st scene.
My thoughts exactly. Who plays ST for money ? I think most of us play the game because we enjoy it, we enjoy the competition and the process of making progress by refining our techniques and strategies. I really don’t get all this talk about money, maybe it’s an american thing. When I play in a tourney or anything that’s not casual play, I give it my all and generally I’m really pissed at myself if I lose, even when there’s absolutely nothing to win.
Ganelon, I partially agree with this. Let’s be honest, no one is going to ever make a living playing ST, but at the same time it’s nice to have your trip paid for and to have a little lunch money.
I guess my question is if money is not the motivator what is? I get that we’re all passionate and love ST, but how do we get people out (especially the big names). As it stands, most players still only attend 1 major tourney outside of their region, Evo (though SB is getting up there as a must attend ;).) How does everyone else get people to come out? Bigger prize money was what the TOs thought would be the answer, but obviously we’re still getting the same numbers. If ST at Season’s Beatings was say $10 would we have gotten more entrants? Probably, but I doubt significantly more.
if the goal is to get new players involved without making them feel like they dont stand a chance against seasoned vets, then what about implementing some kind of league? like, players have to qualify to enter a “grand master” event/seperate tournament? this way new players stand a chance to win, and have something to aspire to? i mean…it would be like major league baseball allowing anybody to enter, knowing they will go up against the yankees…and thats cool in a way for players to see how they fair against the elite, but a MM can provide the same experience. just an idea. how to go about implenting it is beyond me.
The problem of playing strictly for money is clear: as soon as a player you know you will not beat enters, you have no reason for entering the tournament. In addition to it, if they have little time to practice before the event, they may choose not to go.
I see the ability to play the real thing against the best players as one of the advantages of SF. I would be against it, unless the number of events and matches played got too high, which is not going to happen, ever, for good games.
Pros of $50 entry:
- Ability to stream every match
- 3/5 instead of 2/3
- Entice top players to travel from far away
- Flexible payout structure (We did 5th and 5th got their money back, not taking away from the pot)
- Need minimal setups to run a full tourney (arcade OR supergun)
Cons of $50 entry:
- Some players literally cannot afford it
- Top 2-5 $$ might not be enough incentive for travelers
- It’s the FGC, players will still flake
- Deterrent to new blood
All in all I’m disappointed that high-stakes did not bring more players from the WC and esp the EC out to Season’s Beatings this year. That was the main goal of high-stakes ST and it’s not happening. That coupled with the fact that we had ST players there who did not enter this year but played casuals all day (we ended up not organizing the $10 Team Tourney) says to us we might need to change. We tried very hard to organize and hype high-stakes ST last year and got 29 people, but just 16 this year.
I was very happy with the comp and the fact we could stream ALL of ST on 1 H2H station.
Harmon and I really appreciate all your feedback on this. I love competing in ST and I love the community. We talked and are feeling maybe $15-20 is good for a regional ST tourney and maybe $30 is good for our next major. I really believe that $10 tournaments need to GTFO outside of a few specific games, and I’m glad ST was doing that first, so I think that absolutely needs to continue. $20 will give you a bigger pot without sacrificing many players (I think $5 is the sweetspot for getting casuals interested in a game).
I like some of the HIGH high stakes exhibition ideas being tossed around. It would be easier to stream that kind of thing too versus a 30-40-man tournament.
I disagree though with “If X players enters and someone thinks they can’t beat em, they won’t enter.” I feel bad for players with that attitude, and I think the majority of people playing ST seriously are hungry and have confidence in themselves.
How about just do the regular $10-$20+ $5 PPV main event fee. The $5 can go to grudge matches/dream matches etc…People can vote to see who they want to see fight. This can bring hype & also gets the community more involve…Cole vs Daigo, Damdai vs DngrPaper, Ultra vs Bakla etc…
But seriously, having high stakes is not the way to go. Last tourney here in SEattle there were 20 entries & it was only $5…Everyone had a blast, but if it was higher probably only 2/3 would be left…After the tournament, people were really excited for another one, people i have never met who just join the first time…I think the next tourney, Northwest Majors, probably be 30 this time.
If you want to make a living or make extra cash, do money matches…There’s always some chump or elite willing to do that in a tourney…
LOL, I know Ganelon would seize the chance and write a thesis about it 
I agree with most of the points though.
Comparing turnout in socal & ohio would be comparing apples to oranges.
I think ohio needs to attract a lot of out of towners to maintain the same number of entrants as socal.
But even with flatter payout structure and deeper payout, the entry fee still needs to be reasonably affordable.
Remember a lot of people in the FGC community are completely broke.
For a 32 man tourney, even if you have top 16 payout with 4-8 get their money
back and 9-16 get half of their entry fee back, the bottom 16 would still be a
total loss.
If the total loss is $50 + venue fee, a lot of people wouldn’t be able to afford
it and deeper payout only helps the top 16.
But for $20-$30, you have top 16 getting all excited that they “won” something, without making the losers starve for a week.
(assuming many of these are local players, see below)
I did the math and posted about it before. The prize money can only pay for the winner’s trip.
The rest will be SOL. Even with $50 entry fee, it is dwarf in comparison to the traveling / lodging cost.
(it applies to top comp at SF4 AE as well. Momochi hits the jackpot. The rest of the japanese and koreans have to pay for their trip. Possibly 2k usd.)
Here’s what the good players are thinking (who is solely going for ST, so exclude people like cole/tokido/justin, etc)
hmm… if I win, my trip is free.
But damdai and daigo are gonna be there.
Screw that, I have to pay for my trip.
Do I have time? yes/no
Am I rich and not cheap? Yes/no
Is cheap ticket still available? Yes/no
Can I find affordable place to stay or split a room? Yes/no
If no to either of these questions = I’m not going
BTW, ghaleon. You dont have to stream the whole ST tourney.
Of course for ST fans that’s great news. But it might give ST a bad image to force the stream monsters watching every match.
We’re grateful if you guys can stream top 8. And most likely those will be quality competition.
The same thing happens to SF4 AE.
most of us are bored during the pool play because let’s be honest. The american are pretty average at that game and those matches are booooooooring.
When it gets to top 16/ top 8 then finally it’s worth watching.