ST HD Remix changes thread

I searched and searched, and could not find a thread discussing the known and potential changes to HD Remix. I am frankly shocked to think that no one has discussed this in depth yet, and I hope that someone can link me to a massive existing thread on the subject. But if not, then let this thread be the place of discussion.

So we already know about some things from the Capcom blog:

General system changes
[list=a]
[]All Tiger Knee motions have been replaced with DP or QCF
[
]PPP or KKK moves may optionally be executed with LP+LK/MP+MK/FP+RH
[]360s may optionally be executed as HCB, T or HCT, B
[
]720s may optionally be executed as HCB, HCB, T or HCT, HCT, B
[]button mashing moves (e.g. Hundred Hand Slap) will take less button presses to execute
[
]DP input window will be standardized at 15 frames (instead of random 8-15 frame window)
[*]Multi-hit DP-type moves all knock down on first hit and juggle on subsequent hits (avoiding scenario where opponent can retaliate after partially landed DP)
[/list]

Character specific changes

Ryu
[list=a]
[]Fake fireball with QCF+LK
[
]c.FP or c.RH into fake FB will have less recovery than c.FP or c.RH alone
[/list]

T.Hawk
[list=a]
[]Has O.Hawk’s s.RH, s.MP, c.RH, j.d+FP, and DP
[
]Randomly placed c.MP vulnerability box removed
[*]Aerial dive is safe when blocked
[/list]

Ken
[list=a]
[]Jab and Strong DPs are invincible a la O.Ken
[
]Fierce DP has arc of CE Ken’s Fierce DP
[]Hurricane Kick speed/distance has been adjusted (RH HK now goes much faster/farther)
[
]Funky kicks use CVS2 input commands
[]Damage slightly reduced on first hit of MK grab
[
]Super can be performed as a reversal
[/list]

OK, now for some stream-of-consciousness-type stuff.

Grabs:
The wording of the Ken article in the section about his Knee Bash (and the wording of the first article, re: nerfing repeatable abusive tactics of top tier) makes it pretty clear that Dhalsim and Boxer will be receiving a significant nerf to noogie/headbutt. Ken’s Knee Bash was carefully considered and left (mostly) alone, so I think it’s fair to say that Hawk and Blanka’s grabs will remain intact. How do you suppose that the nerf will be enacted? My first thoughts were…

  1. farther, shorter recovery arc from Boxer/Sim grabs (think WW SPD, but if you landed on your feet)
  2. Boxer/Sim grabs can be throw-softened, extremely minor damage on first hit

The first would significant affect the strategy of those characters; Boxer might not want to land a throw if it means he has to work hard to get back in after. The second wouldn’t make as much of a difference, but you could potentially see even more attempts for throws (of course, reducing the reward on the throw attempt skews this in favor of the defender, overall).

Sagat/Claw:
Boxer/Sim/O.Sagat/Claw were singled out as the top tier. It’s fairly obvious what Boxer and Sim are losing, so what about the other two?

Given the removal of Old characters, Sagat stands to lose a heap off the top. I imagine that this new hybrid version will have the ability to interrupt s.LK, but what about his DP? Does he lose the big damage of Old or the juggles of New? Sirlin stated that they want to keep FBs relevant; does this mean HDR Sagat will just get all of O.Sagat’s tricks plus throw escapes and a super?

Repeated Claw wall dives would seem to fall well within the realm of “abusable repeated tactic”… and with online lag added, this won’t get any easier to defend. The obvious and simple solution would be to make the wall dive fail to knock the opponent down on a successful hit, but would this be opening up the same type of retaliation that the multi-hit DP fix was implemented to stop?

Other characters:

  • Will HDR Fei get O.Fei interruptability on normals? He is a lower-tier character, after all.
  • Will the non-FB characters get new weapons against Honda? Since Honda’s main weakness is FBs, and they’ve stated their desire to reduce overall FB effectiveness from a “10” to an “8,” this would seem to be a dramatic boost for Honda, unless he takes some steps back in his dominant matches.
  • What will Guile’s standing kicks be? O.Guile’s ability to use s.short (while maintaining SB charge) as slide defense against Sim/Blanka was a significant boost in that matchup, yet it doesn’t seem possible to be able to access s.short, hopknee, and sobat while maintaining a charge. Maybe sobat will be changed to LP+LK? Such a drastic change seems unlikely.

just make vega’s wall dive fail to knock down on hit but enough frame advantage to follow it up with a c.mk or c.mp.

on the other hand, make his claw thrust (superman move) knock down on hit.

Oh, one other thing:

In the Hawk article, Sirlin mentions that if there’s a problem with Hawk’s new super motion and it’s “too good,” they could just “lower the damage on the super throw.” I’m wondering if this game is going to have patches like, say, Starcraft, where (for example) Cammy is awesome in HDR v1.0 because of some crazy tactic, but it’s nerfed to hell in HDR v1.2 and she sucks again.

with changes to how the Dp’s are going to work (ie multi-hit dps juggle…) are we going to see some weird juggle combos, like anti-air standing fp xx dp for 2 in 1 anti air… I mean it’s kinda cool but it doesn’t feel very sf… Another thing to try to make sure woudl be for them to do like a light attack with ken against another jumper and then make sure ken can’t juggle with his dp… I would hope they are checking that kinda stuff…

That didn’t work with existing juggles in ST (e.g. DJ jackknife, N.Sagat TU) so I don’t think there’s much to worry about. The most I would expect is that if you hit a cornered jumper with the very end of a DP, you could probably juggle them for an additional hit with a subsequent fierce DP.

still that wouldn’t be very cool… what about ryu’s dp which is two hits on block (I think that still happens in st…) could you do jump mp juggle dp?

spider dan: theres already a thread in fighting game discussion. we are already on our 3rd thread there for almost a combined 10,000 posts =)

jeez, sorry i am slipping lemme close this. To much vf5 not enough moderating, and on a sidenote all this bitching about making walldive not knockdown is stupid and would make vega extremely useless