Let’s get together for some ST on Sunday at FF.
Honda Sim
Nonsense. I know for a fact that Honda doesn’t have even ONE jump in that beats Dhalsim’s standing backwards + jab, as a friend and I tried it, going through every jumping move Honda has. None of them beat it, or even managed to trade. The heabutt loses to it, and so does the butt stomp (if placed right; directly over his head, or crossing him over, the butt stomp wins).
Jump back strong doesn’t always work. But when it does it’s great. 
But Gief doesn’t have to try splash again. He can just SPD you for free. AFAIK there is NO WAY out of SPD ticks with Bison outside of super. Counter-throw maybe, but if Gief is smart he’ll push himself away (with jabs or something) out of your throw range first and then SPD you.
I have reversed with every special, no dice. I have to be the idiot and hold up-back in hopes that he screws up. I am at his mercy. Then I feel like much more of an idiot when he lets me jump, then smacks me with j.HP or something because he knows I have no choice but to jump. Grrrr. .
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I really want to try this out. I can’t believe you actually want to get close to Gief though. I thought Fei had control of this match because of the distance game, and here you are powering down Gief upclose?!
Did Gief try ducking lariats? jabs? stomach crunch?
I know it’s tight, but had you ever been reversed with SPD after the twisty kick? That’s what would scare me about trying this too much. As much as I like busting out the reversal short flame kick (I can do it a very good percentage of the time), I’d rather not get into the [I’ll give you 2 chances to reverse, or eat SPD] xN game.
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I don’t see why he can’t jab headbutt. AFAIK Honda does well against Fei. Ranged wrekka’s don’t work on honda. Fei’s mighty meaty game is fucked because honda says “you can’t do meaties on me”.
On the flipside, if Fei is quick with the short flame kicks and pops EVERY buttsplash and heabutt, and reversals EVERY time he needs to to stop Slaps and Ochios… He’s in good shape.
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Just in case you didn’t know, the last jab wrekka isn’t always safe. ESPECIALLY against Gief. There is time to insert a reversal special before the last jab rekka connects. I dunno about ALL the time, but it sucks when you get super’ed or SPD’d through the last wrekka
Try O.DJ for a laugh. His crossup is a lot harder to land, but it’s almost NEVER a real crossup, and you have to block the wrong (er, right?) way. Let’s just say it seems to connect a lot?
He loses upkick (boo), but the hyperfist isn’t so bad. It can anti-air quite well because of the invincibility. It’s actually better than the upkick in 2 ways as well. It can stop crossups (it hits behind him) and it stops low meaties. Yeah, I know of short dread, but dread doesn’t hit as fast, and it sucks to be baited.
He’s actually pretty cool until your opponents learn how to jump-in after knockdown so they can hit you, but block if you reversal hyperfist. But you don’t really have to tell them, do you?
Who counters DJ? I’ve heard shotos do well -IF- they can get him cornered. Ryu especially.
your forgettin one jump in…
the jump in with nothing (no range)… basic old school 101 Sf tactic… thought that you would know that. chain that into ochico… and round over… plus Head butt beats it… as long as its on the ground up close… as for the long distance one … if i get jabbed tisk tisk… your then to close to me and i get free hit on a wakeup. all someone has to do is play for money… but I dont think anyone has the 8@!!$ to do so. Ask Spence (elite) how difficult it is to play my honda… i dont depend on jumpins in fact i NEVER jump in unless your on the ground! you dont need to jump Vs Dhalsim! I’ll get 3 supers+ per round. ill go through the FBs … get close and ochico. 1 knockdown spells certain doom for Sim! Ill take hits to buid super, hands out the ass on sim kills him. Old sim has an even harder time since he has no super or throw recovery. but obviously you wont believe it until you see it! so no use argueing! till chicago OR Evo ( but not both) we will see!
Bill GYou’re right in that Bison has almost nothing (other than the super) the either starts up quickly enough or has any invulnerability to hope to be able to escape the SPD, so I’ll go with that. The body splash isn’t the best move to pull that trick with, however…and then, of course, there’s the classic “wait till he jumps and then smash up and roundhouse” counter, that should prove equally effective here. However, he has to get close to you for it to work in the first place, and I still don’t see that happening. Zangief has major problems with people that outrange his cr. roundhouse; imagine dealing with guile’s cr. forward if you couldn’t hit it with Gief’s cr. roundhouse. That’s what this match up is like for Gief. Bison may not have the flash kick to stop him from jumping in, but you’ll never convinve me that trying to leap over Bison’s legs is realistically going to get you in reliably.
The standing fierce links from the arc kick, so you can’t. If it connects, it’s a four hit combo - 3 hits from the arc kick, standing fierce. The next arc kick doesn’t combo, of course, but if they blocked it, they’ve got fierce blockstun to contend with, plus the fact that the startup of the arc kick is invincible. I’d need to see a frame by frame break down to see if there is any point that Zangief can possibly get to Fei before he gets into the air, but I don’t think there is. If he can’t, he needs a way to beat the arc kick while it’s raining down on his head, and the lariat (even on first frame!) certainly doesn’t work for that. You can forget the others.
As a general rule, I agree: Honda wins the matchup with Fei Long. However, in the case of Fei Long landing that arc kick trap, it may be a forgone conclusion. JAB headbutts certainly won’t get you out of it…maybe a fierce one, or again if there’s a frame or two of vulnerability before you actually get air borne and after they recover from the blockstun left by that fierce, he might be able to ochio. A lot of characters have a great deal of trouble escaping that, mainly because its so bloody hard for most characters to deal with an arc kick on top of the head.
If the combo connects, you might as well do three fierces; no reason not to. But with the spacing left by that combo, all three should connect, all the time, even if the last one happens to be a jab. It’s true that sometimes, due to spacing issues, the jab one either takes to long or doesn’t connect at all, even though the first two connected, but the spacing here should be fine.
A lot of characters have problems when Ryu corners them.:lol:
As for direct counter characters…um? I can’t think of anyone that Dee Jay doesn’t have at least a decent game against. Maybe Balrog
your forgettin one jump in…
I’m not forgetting empty jump ins; they just don’t work. Yeah, I suppose you could probably psych someone out, but at absolute best you get him to whiff a JAB, and a pretty early one at that. He has plenty of time to do something else. Like noogie you if you planned on landing close enough to ochio. Besides which, we’re talking about a match here where Honda getting in doesn’t revolve around Dhalsim screwing up. How does he get in against a fabulous Dhalsim?
As to Honda’s super…man, that thing is terrible. Dhalsim can b + jab him out of that, too. Or use his forward drill to shut it down, if you do it from across the screen. The only time Dhalsim is actually going to care if you have super or not is when he gives you an opportunity to actually HIT him through the fire ball, and even then it almost never connects; half the time, the first hit connects, the second one whiffs, and Honda pops out of it, lands in front of Dhalsim, and gets noogied. For no particularly good reason, other than his super is worthless. And that’s a big IF in the first place.
I’m not saying that this match isn’t hard. In point of fact, I’m saying it’s VERY hard for Dhalsim. But I’m also saying that Honda getting in revolves around Dhalsim screwing up, which is simply made likely by the difficulty of the match. If the opponent is an absolutely fantastic Dhalsim, your absolutely fantastic Honda will lose, because you can’t get in unless he messes up.
This match isn’t like most things in ST, where it boils down to a guessing game between the characters, and he who guesses better takes the gold. It’s more like crossing someone up who then tries to go for a zero frame shoryuken. Alright, it’s really hard to do. Yes, he might mess up. But if he’s really, really good, he won’t mess up, and your cross overs are doomed to fail. And sadly, that’s Honda lot in life.
I tried to place them in some kind of order, but it was hard :fury: I don’t think Balrog is one of DeeJay’s hard matches.
Matches that are not favorable for DeeJay: O.Ken, Ryu, Sim, Bison
Matches that are close to even: O.Sagat, N.Ken, Blanka, Vega, Chun
Orignal Ken, Ryu, and Dhalsim I can understand, although I’d argue that Dee Jay has a better match against Dhalsim than the others. His crouching fierce is great for trading with limbs, he has disgusting priority on his jumping forward, he can hop through yoga fires with his short jack knife, and he recovers really, really fast from his max outs. If only he had a command move fireball, he’d be all set. But why do you think he loses to Bison? I would have thought that was a pretty fair match up, if not in Dee Jay’s favor. His short jack knife can be used just like a shoryuken to counter psycho crushers/scissor kicks, he has great range on his standing roundhouse, if bison wants to play that game; he recovers way too quickly from his max outs for Bison to realistically make much use of the Devil’s Reverse, and his corner traps should be really hard for a character without a decent zero frame (such as Bison) to escape. Is there something obvious I’m missing in this matchup?
I used to think Sim was a good match too, but DeeJay has no answer for tick noogie setups other than reversal super. Even excluding this, walking along and hitting c.fierce is only going to get you so far. It’s very rarely reactionary as limbs are just too fast, and if Sim is fast, it’s punishable. It’s like saying Ryu should beat Sim because he can dp all his limbs for free.
Bison does well against DeeJay because his standing boot stops a lot of pokes, and he’s got that funky jump that doesn’t conform to other characters’. You can’t play the same throw fb, slide, watch for a jump to upkick against Bison when he can s.rh to hit you out of slide cleanly, and jump and cross you up instead of landing just in front of you as other characters would. Anytime Bison gets close he also can set up a pretty mean tick game, which in general DeeJay doesn’t do well against. You’re right though that this match is pretty fair. It’s not as lopsided as O.Ken, Sim, etc matches, but Bison still has game against him.
Hmm, I wonder why I forgot about the short slide tick. Can Dee Jay counter with his machine gun punch? That has an invincible zero frame, does it not? The computer seems to abuse that. Still, I’m not entirely sure it would work, as I almost never use the move, and I have no concept of how big it’s hit box is.
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I know it combos, but I know that eventually, I will screw it up once, and get SPD’d. 
It you can do it perfectly, well, more power to ya. I would feel safer going for the long range game myself.
Can Gief jump to get hit in the air?
If you want to try another anti-gief trick with Fei, you could try anti-air twisty kick. The twisty kick is invincible on the first part. So when gief jumps, stay ducking until that last possible moment. Then execute the short twisty kick right before he hits you. He should whiff, land, and you’re then coming down on his head with twisty kick. I don’t know if he can hit it or not because like I said, I’m usually too afraid to do twisty kicks on Gief, so I’ve only tried it a couple times…
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I find it crazy that jab headbutt won’t beat it. It beats practical EVERYTHING at that height. I just assumed it would beat it no sweat.
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Even if they all connect (blcoked), there can be a reversal hole. It doesn’t look like it, but it’s there. Maybe because blockstun is shorter than hitstun? I dunno.
If gief is trying SPD everytime you do blocked wrekkas, you’ll notice it. If there’s no hole, he’ll block it. If there is, SPD. So there’s no real reason NOT to try SPD if you’re doing 3 wrekkas everytime. Tell you gief opponent to try it.
Only old DJ has invincibilty on the hyperfist.
Even if you were old DJ I don’t think it will beat slide anyways.
You can avoid the slide with short dread kick. But then you get knocked out of it with Sim’s standing strong because he’s going for throw.
Best thing IMO is to block slide, then try counter throw or upckick the throw attempt. But if Sim is mxing up like he should upkick will whiff, and we all know how hard counter-throwing is.
You can try to throw the slide itself. Seems impossible, but it can happen. If you mess up, you’ll get hit. Taking the hit makes reversing/counter-throwing easier (or does it? it seems easier for some reason). So it might help stop the noogie. But Sim can link another attack for combo if you do take the hit instead… so, bleh.
Honda can headbutt out of this with no problems. He can jab headbutt for free between the point the fierce and the arc kick and at worst, if your timing is off, it will trade in Honda’s favor, which is part of the reason this is such a tough matchup.
Unless you’re talking about a different trap that I’m missing.
(fyi this is shrek)
wow, reading some parts of this thread makes my head hurt: come on now guys.
As far as the fei/honda issue earlier, like masaka said; trade or hit clean. if you disagree please pay me a visit
also as far as dhalsim / honda, that’s a really fun fight for both parties involved. Getting in can be difficult but not impossible at all, and once you do, it’s hard for sim to get away. I’ve played this match just a few times with a few -decent- dhalsim players and myself being an -okay- honda player, it boils down to a pretty good fight.
note: some of the x beats y talk, while constructive, doesn’t exactly mean squat if it’s a bunch of pad scrubs trying things out at home. Saying that one character can beat another just because your buddy ‘kinda’ plays Zangief and you are a self proclaimed master at DJ doesnt’ mean squat. Finding some of the better known players with their respective characters, and finding out their opinions is worth a lot more than some mall scrub ryu player’s take on some match.
Old Dee Jay just has a lot more invincibility on the machine gun punch. If I recall aright, new Dee Jay has first frame invincibility on the machine gun punch, and then it abruptly ends, much like the invincibility on Fei Long’s arc kick. I’ve seen it used many times as a zero-frame to counter cross overs, causing kicks to pass through him and people to eat machine gun punch, and I’m positive that it was new Dee Jay, so I’m reasonably confident that it has zero frame invulnerability. The other possibility is that it has really, really freakish hit boxes, which could also come in handy in a situation like this. He certainly doesn’t have enough invulnerability to be useful as anything but a zero frame, in any case.
Counter throwing is unreliable, as is throwing him out of the slide…the timing is too hard. And hitting the jack knife after the slide is annoyingly difficult; hitting it as a counter to the slide is unhelpful. Given all that, I’m afraid I’m drawn to the conclusion that Dee Jay does have a really hard time with that particular tick, and grant that it sways the matchup pretty strongly.
And if you’re old Dee Jay, and you use the machine gun punch, and you’re invincible, then of course it beats the slide. 
The slide can’t hit you while you’re invincinble, and it (the slide) doesn’t last very long - he’s going to stand up right into the punch, which lasts quite a while. I’ll honestly say I haven’t tried this, but it seems logical. Unless, of course, after blocking the machine gun punch he remains close enough to noogie you anyways, which would just be cruel.
If this is true, then I don’t see much hope for Fei Long in this match, and I stand by my original statement. I didn’t think the headbutt could be used to get out, but if it can, more power to Honda.
The trap we’re discussing is simply arc kick, link into standing fierce xx arc kick, link into standing fierce xx arc kick… I’m sure it’s the same one you’re thinking of.
Of course not. And FYI, I’m not the one who usually plays Fei Long, I’m usually the one playing Zangief in this match up. Praying that he screws up and whiffs the combo and I can SPD him is as natural as breathing. But if the combo is done correctly, and you block it, you simply get no chance to SPD. The blockstun from the rush punches is plenty long - take my word for it. And the jab one pushes him way far back, well out of grab range. Now, a lot of times properly done but improperly spaced rush punches leave him close enough to cr. roundhouse, or improperly done rush punches leave him close enough for the pile driver, or else provide a ‘hole’ through which you can SPD him, but that’s the extent of it.
Part of the problem is, if you block the rush punches, you don’t get a combo counter to check and see if you did them right, or if your timing was off. You have to trust to your reflexes, and that you won’t screw up (the same is true with any combo). As a result, if they start the punches from too far away, it can look like they did them right and you SPDed them out of the third one. In reality, though, if you hadn’t been blocking, it would’ve been obvious that either their spacing or their timing was wrong when the little “3 hit combo” failed to show up.
I’ve played many Dee Jays in my day and most if not all get thrown like a rag doll. It’s really not pretty. I’m assuming only Japanese deejays can come close.
Honda vs Fei
I’ll make this short! Ive played Masakas Fei and Jump suits As well. Those are two of the best 4-5 Fei’s out there! Its a bad matchup for Fei, although Honda can get jacked if he gets careless. Honda can essentially head butt everything for free once he gets in the corner. turtle power kids! The arc kick is easily Headbutted, You have very few frames to react though! but it can be pulled off quite easily! One disadvantage that honda has vs Fei is, Fei’s walkup crossover. Which for some reason the jab headbutt misses! It just whiffs man!!! dont know why. then its auto lose for honda esepecially if Fei has a super. This is why honda needs to be in the corner like he does vs most non-FB characters! Or at least how i like to play it! :eek:
Honda vs Fei
Fei Vs Honda = Like throwing spit wads at a German Tank
What’s this nonsense about Sim back+jab owning Honda?
What jumping down+forward kick doesn’t flat out beat, it will trade for way more damage. I play the match just jumping in with that over and over. Sim can do cumsquat.
timing issue
Yes i know Dasrik, they fail to see the timing aspect of it… the forward jump can be done at anytime and the jabs comes out and retracts so fast that i can wait on reaction and time my forward jump or anyjump to hit it! usually the Jfierce float will do this if i hit fierce on the way up like the Quick Zangief jump in w/ RH. can hit you on teh way up! Hondas Jfierce has same properties! They will be hit before they have time to react to it. then when they try and guess here i wait and do the forward! Of course jumping in is not good… id just take the FB in the face and build meter. I don’t jump in this match so it really dont matter! And if i do jump it’ll be straight up over FBs w/ fierce!