SSFIV General Theory Fighter Thread. Lets actually talk about the fighting!

The_Lone_Dragon · December 29, 2009, 6:30am

And, therein lies the conflict…

DevilJin_01 · December 29, 2009, 6:47am

Ryu is pretty weak in comparison to other SF games but he just has handicap shit like FADC Ultra and auto correct shoryu that keeps him standing out in the game basically. It’s not even that Ryu is strong…it’s just that the lower half of the cast is lacking in comparison. They’re like third world refugees compared to Ryu as far as options and strengths. I would like a SF game where Ryu’s f+HP is actually useful again. Doesn’t surprise me that he thought CVS2 was a solid game and the Darkstalkers games were another staple series for him back in the day. I think that game probably is the epitome of what he’s looking for in a fighting game.

The interview pretty much holds my sentiments entirely on SFIV. Not interesting enough. The Ultras are the most interesting parts of like half of the matchups in the game. Characters need more ways to access damage and open things up and not have specific options that cover all of the offensive options the game has to offer that is already limited. I think if done correctly Super SFIV could easily be one of the best SF games on a strategical/technical standpoint ever. They just need to fix the right things and not be afraid to give strong things to all of the characters and not make all the world warrior characters watered down simplified versions of their original selves.

ilitirit · December 29, 2009, 7:30am

TBH, I think people care too much about what Daigo thinks. He’s a great player and a good ambassador for the scene, but at the end of the day he’s just one good player among hundreds. It’s really tiresome hearing about shit for weeks on end just because one player hinted at something.

I mean seriously:

DevilJin_01 · December 29, 2009, 7:35am

I guess we’ll never agree on Rufus, but I have my opinion on him and it’ll stay unless he gets changed up in Super. There’s just aspects about the character I think are unnecessarily cheesy. He definitely does require some type of skill but I think most of it is only really implemented in his tough matchups where effective spacing with the dives is important against characters who have a pretty easy time keeping him out. Once he gets in I think he could be a bit more interesting of a character instead of going for 50/50 shit. I definitely look forward to the changes to Rufus he was definitely one of the characters I could barely stand from a competitive point of view for the game. One of the most BS aspects of him is already confirmed to getting toned down for the new game any ways.

Yeah everyone should have their own opinions, but I just personally find it interesting that his sentiments on the game are nearly the same as mine when I had those same feelings many months before he made those comments. Daigo wanting guard break is a personal preference for him and I think the game could work without guard break but it definitely wouldn’t hurt if implemented the right way.

Alvien · December 29, 2009, 7:44am

TBH a lot of people on SRK have been saying they want a guard break implemented in SF4 for a while now. Long before that interview came about. A lot of it poped up when BlazBlue first hit (it has a guard break system). Some people were throwing out similar suggestions even before then.

ranix · December 29, 2009, 8:00am

yes let ad a guard break system on sf4.

wake up against akuma : guard the jump hado then
cr.mp st hk , shoryuken fadc shoryuken fadc crlk cr.lp cr…mp cr.hk
guard break

ultra…

sagat

TK cr.lp st.lk TK , TU fadc TU FADC TU
guard break

ULTRA…

including ULTRA and FADC and Guard break will be too risky with creating some easy set up that bring a guard break and a free 500 damage ultra…

if you add the fact that some character have no reversal and that some other super pressing safe and fast option…

I can t imagine an abel or a vega in the corner with a sagat TK pressur in front and a guard break barre…

g_a_m_m_o_n · December 29, 2009, 8:00am

polarity:

If you bump “unwinnable” position up to “really bad”, “really bad” to “bad” and “bad” to “neutral” (as, really, every SF game after ST has done - there are never truly unwinnable positions any more) you devalue the importance of play in every other stage because the potential reward for winning that stage is less. In many situations in SF4 it’s taken one step further, thanks to the implementation of systems to appeal to whiners like The Lone Dragon - “really bad” becomes “bad” and “bad” becomes “neutral”. This is why SF4 is a turtle’s game. If you nerf the power of good position to appease whiners who don’t understand the effort it takes to put someone there, only that it’s “unfair” that the opponent gets to freestyle on their ass while they have to work to not get mixed up, you devalue the importance of play in every other process - there might be bad positions but they’re only a little bad, and nothing you can do is gonna push it further into really bad or unwinnable, so why bother trying? Better to just turtle/do totally safe random explosive damage when you can, i.e. play SF4.

Haha, I like this opinion. Kind of how many games are going now-a-days. Too bad really.

Infil · December 29, 2009, 8:05am

SF4 is a game where people like to whine, though. I whine too, sometimes. Every move is too good at some point, even if it isn’t.

I still think some people don’t know what they want when it comes to SSF4. Some people want offense to be way stronger on a knockdown, and then complain that Sakura, a character with an 11-frame invincible reversal (same as EX messiah!) is free on wakeup because she can be meaty cr.jab’D and thrown to death, so give her and Rose and [insert character here] help on wakeup! Well, this is going to mean offense isn’t as strong on knockdown.

There are other examples too, but this is one.

TheDarkPhoenix · December 29, 2009, 8:08am

polarity:

This is nonsense. The whole point of a blockstring (which is in essence a mixup opportunity or chance to place yourself at a desirable distance) is it’s the attacking player’s reward for getting to close range/getting a knockdown/landing an attack. There’s no need for it to be interactive because the interactive portion of gameplay comes in getting into that position, and furthermore the lack of interactivity is necessary for the getting into that position to be meaningful. If you attempt to make the reward just as interactive as the process then you end up devaluing the part of the game you spend 80% of the time playing. In order to have a risk/reward system that means anything you have to accept that at some point the advantage is going to lay entirely or almost entirely in one player’s hands or there’s less to work towards and therefore less depth. In good SF games you can have option trees/gameflows that look like this:

good position -> neutral position -> bad position -> really bad position -> unwinnable position.

I’m probably on shaky ground here amongst the majority of the SRK populace because most people simply don’t understand these concepts - to them fighting games are all about guessing and doing mixups. But what good fighting games are about are these kind of declining option trees where each correct move vs. your opponent’s wrong move results in them taking a further step towards the match being unwinnable, and to come back to a neutral footing they must make a number of sequential moves whose risk/reward ratios total the cumulative risk/reward ratio of the process you used to put them there.

If you bump “unwinnable” position up to “really bad”, “really bad” to “bad” and “bad” to “neutral” (as, really, every SF game after ST has done - there are never truly unwinnable positions any more) you devalue the importance of play in every other stage because the potential reward for winning that stage is less. In many situations in SF4 it’s taken one step further, thanks to the implementation of systems to appeal to whiners like The Lone Dragon - “really bad” becomes “bad” and “bad” becomes “neutral”. This is why SF4 is a turtle’s game. If you nerf the power of good position to appease whiners who don’t understand the effort it takes to put someone there, only that it’s “unfair” that the opponent gets to freestyle on their ass while they have to work to not get mixed up, you devalue the importance of play in every other process - there might be bad positions but they’re only a little bad, and nothing you can do is gonna push it further into really bad or unwinnable, so why bother trying? Better to just turtle/do totally safe random explosive damage when you can, i.e. play SF4.

I want to give you rep for this post…but “I gotta spread more” rep 1s

TheDarkPhoenix · December 29, 2009, 8:13am

sf4 gives everyone something to whine about at almost all times

my character sucks
There is about .027 lag on this tv
I misssed my link
I missed my link because of the .027 of lag
I hate ultra’s
I lost because of ultra
I have no AA
I have no good pokes
I have no stamaina
I get stun to easy
my focus attack sucks
my characters has a bad match u vs sagat/ryu
my characters has a bad match up vs gief
I just can’t fight well against sagat
I just can’t fight well against gief
Game is to turtle friendly
Game rewards scrubs
Games rewards you for losing that why i suck at it.
and last but not least

My controller…

Mariodood · December 29, 2009, 8:16am

If you think about it, it was kind of a shitty design choice to let SRK juggle into ultras. I think if Ryu had to land his ultra without Shoryu he’d be a little more interesting. He’d have to corner people to do it or land j. MP.

Then the SRK FADC would be more balanced because it wouldn’t really lead to such damage options if it hit.

The_Lone_Dragon · December 29, 2009, 8:17am

I wish Sakura’s EX DP had a 1 in 3 chance of being unpunishable…

Infil · December 29, 2009, 8:32am

Eh… point semi-taken, but it’s not that bad. You should be able to punish EX messiah a pretty high percentage of the time with many characters (it’s virtually 100% guaranteed for DP characters). And even then, isn’t this one of those moves that’s just “really good” that should be given to most characters? Rufus would be substantially worse without EX messiah.

It is safer than Sakura EX DP, though, I’ll give you that.

robotic_elf · December 29, 2009, 8:44am

And didn’t suffer from punishable on hit glitches.

DevilJin_01 · December 29, 2009, 8:48am

Heh Viper kills Sakura on wake up. If Viper knocks Sakura down she gets a pretty safe option select on wake up with air LK burn kick low to the ground. If Sakura decides to block you get frame advantage and set up for another mix up. If she goes for EX shououken (dragon punch) it will whiff under Viper’s burn kick and she gets a free combo. :lol:

Coth_X · December 29, 2009, 8:51am

polarity:

This is nonsense. The whole point of a blockstring (which is in essence a mixup opportunity or chance to place yourself at a desirable distance) is it’s the attacking player’s reward for getting to close range/getting a knockdown/landing an attack. There’s no need for it to be interactive because the interactive portion of gameplay comes in getting into that position, and furthermore the lack of interactivity is necessary for the getting into that position to be meaningful. If you attempt to make the reward just as interactive as the process then you end up devaluing the part of the game you spend 80% of the time playing. In order to have a risk/reward system that means anything you have to accept that at some point the advantage is going to lay entirely or almost entirely in one player’s hands or there’s less to work towards and therefore less depth. In good SF games you can have option trees/gameflows that look like this:

good position -> neutral position -> bad position -> really bad position -> unwinnable position.

I’m probably on shaky ground here amongst the majority of the SRK populace because most people simply don’t understand these concepts - to them fighting games are all about guessing and doing mixups. But what good fighting games are about are these kind of declining option trees where each correct move vs. your opponent’s wrong move results in them taking a further step towards the match being unwinnable, and to come back to a neutral footing they must make a number of sequential moves whose risk/reward ratios total the cumulative risk/reward ratio of the process you used to put them there.

If you bump “unwinnable” position up to “really bad”, “really bad” to “bad” and “bad” to “neutral” (as, really, every SF game after ST has done - there are never truly unwinnable positions any more) you devalue the importance of play in every other stage because the potential reward for winning that stage is less. In many situations in SF4 it’s taken one step further, thanks to the implementation of systems to appeal to whiners like The Lone Dragon - “really bad” becomes “bad” and “bad” becomes “neutral”. This is why SF4 is a turtle’s game. If you nerf the power of good position to appease whiners who don’t understand the effort it takes to put someone there, only that it’s “unfair” that the opponent gets to freestyle on their ass while they have to work to not get mixed up, you devalue the importance of play in every other process - there might be bad positions but they’re only a little bad, and nothing you can do is gonna push it further into really bad or unwinnable, so why bother trying? Better to just turtle/do totally safe random explosive damage when you can, i.e. play SF4.

Damn I never saw that post. Great post, hell it should be stickied to the SSFIV forum.

I’d rep you, but I’m not gona pay for premium.

time_attack · December 29, 2009, 9:19am

was thinking about this the other day. But dismissed it.

Mr_List · December 29, 2009, 1:39pm

maybe they kept sf4 tamer with the overpowered moves because the ultras are supposed to be the ultra powered moves?

DayUn · December 29, 2009, 1:44pm

If your opponent is smart enough and playing a character with a DP, they can just DP through the first and second hits. You cant really FADC out of it either. Rufus’s Ex Messiah is infinitely better in that department.

The_Mullah · December 29, 2009, 3:22pm

if specials did no gaurd bar damage then i don’t seei t being a problem, especially given that blockstrings can be blown wide open with srks. Without thinking about it too much it’d only help poke heavy characters of which there aren’t many. no?