2461

yeah, my statement was based on startup frames. that’s why i was talking about frame data earlier. damage, and frame data are the most crucial elements in sf4, that’s why i was talking about some kind of parry to offset the power of those elements.

i would imagine that it’s really really difficult to try to balance these games, if you actually are trying to make a good game. like, how are you supposed to make changes without making op stuff or too weak stuff, and all the while making a fun, interesting game? that’s why i think they make stuff too strong before they tone it down. it’s like when you’re building a house: a teacher i had used to always say “measure twice–cut once”. and or, it’s better to have too much, so you can trim it down than to have too little, in which case, you’ll have to start all over again.

2462

If its not fun for you, dont play. If you cant find a way to have fun with it, then you shouldn’t be here and maybe arent a very fun person in general.:wow:

2463

I’m just curious, how is a move deemed “stupid” by the community? If any, how does one justify the stupidity of a move? By the difficulty of it application or the fact that it can easily turn the tide of a match to a player very quickly?

2464

seems like you want 3s. very different styles of games. no real room for comparison IMO

2465

Actually parrying increases the emphasis on those elements. Because at a high level when everyone is just as good at parrying and which moves are the easiest to parry? The moves that are slow as hell.

If you look at 3S the characters who dominate the game are generally fast characters with good priority on their attacks. The characters who are at the bottom are the characters who are easier to parry or the ones who lack good priority and mix ups.

Q: Can I beat it?
A: No
Conclusion: The move is retarded.

2466

usually spamable, safe, and heavily rewarding. extra stupid points if said move severely limits a lot of characters options

mostly about risk reward tho. 2 rekkas for example in AE

2467

see, this is why i have always been in favor of a “parry meter”. i’ve never liked the concept of unlimited parry. so, if you had to be mindful of your parries and your opponent’s parries throughout the match, then it would mix in different dynamics. you could also finally put in a whiff animation for it.

would evo moment #37 have still happened if there was a parry meter? doubt it, but maybe it would have. if daigo had saved up a maxed out parry meter, and justin knew it, would he still have tried that super? what if daigo was one parry bar/level short of being able to parry the full super, then justin could’ve chipped him to death; but what if daigo would’ve changed his strategy because he knew he didn’t have enough parry meter? a lot of mind games.

also, i’m pretty sure, if you had a parry meter, you wouldn’t be able to full parry a super and an ultra, so that also adds in an interesting dynamic to ultra/super/ex meter management. and how do you weigh parrying normals vs saving meter to full parry ultra’s supers?

2468

something like a focus attack :stuck_out_tongue:

2469

So should the dev team work on getting these moves out of AE 2012, or tweak them to be able to be still used but risky at some point? Because all I get from thread that discuss balance is complaints that one move shouldn’t be changed or tweaked that way and instead be tweaked the other way because they assume that their logic is sound, when in reality might be causing more damage to other players who use other characters and start doing the same. I do like a fair game but a game where everyone;s wish is fulfilled is a game I wouldn’t want to touch with a mile long pole, with all the risk imbalance leaning on a character people will preceive as too strong or stupid as the case would be.

2470

thats why a wishlist thread for eveyone on srk is a bad idea.

some moves are genuinely stupid, and some arent. but when capcom starts listening to randoms on twitter or whatever you end up with some shit being taken away that shouldnt

i can speak directly about my character and say that 2 rekkas on block is stupid in AE. theres like 40% of the characters that cant do shit when they get spaced out correctly. so its a no risk easy hit confirm that sends you into the corner where its even easier to space shit right for 160 or so dmg. oh, and you cant block it on reaction.

for general fairness i can see why it got nerfed. the first one will be just as stupid in 2012, but because the focus is on hit confirming from 1 hit, the risk is higher.

2471

stop crying about the kickoff stuff. It has always been at the 35, it only changed about 15 years ago. But When I was growing up, that is where it was. Play Tecmo, or Tecmo super bowl, or nes playaction football, or Madden , Madden 92-95ish. The NCAA still uses it, while in High School we used the 40 yard line. People got along fine then.

NFL always keeps tweaking things to benefit offense, scoring. That is why we have this monstrosity of a passing league right now. Let’s Get back to the Days of Defense. That’s why I like the Steelers. Illegal contact, BS pass interference, You can’t sniff a QB, hands to the head rules, questionable late hit rules, it’s like everything is for them. Defensive pass interference can conceivable be a 99 yard penalty, offensive pass interference is a 15 yard penalty. Offensive Holding is 10 yard penalty, Defensive holding is an automatic first down. Offensive hands to the face rules, or other illegal contact are 5 yard penalties. Defensive ones are automatic first down. Need I say more?? In high school, Me and my other defensive guys use to love eating up you offensive pansies for breakfast.

Anyways, back to our regularly scheduled Street Fighter talk. I prefer the game to be as balanced as possible, and for defensive options to be just as numerous as offensive ones. Marvel is basically Offense on Steroids, and therefore I just can’t get into it as much. Make the game fully balance, so it is skill, and nothing but skill that determines who wins or loses. There may be a few bad matchups when you have 39 people, and I understand that, but if you make a character, and he has bad matchups throughout most of the cast, then this is a good time to tweak the frame data, and move properties like hitbox and hurtbox, so that there is less of a disadvantage. Now unless a glitches like in marvel is the name of the game, Capcom should be able to see where characters stand before release, and if not, definitely after release and before the first revision so it is completely unacceptable when a character hangs around in crap tier revision after revision.

2472

I like to see NFL-level skilled player kickoff returns, and the new rule affects the amount I see. Its just less entertaining. If I want to watch NCAA or HS…or pee wee or junior league football then I will.

Either way this isnt the place for that discussion and I’ll get along no matter. If I dont think the games are entertaining/fun enough to watch then I wont watch them, maybe I will do something else, like… play SF4, reply to people on SRK… or watch a tourney/replay :wink:

2473

Not even worth answering the question, I actually had a response for each change and I just deleted it. Lot’s of things I have wanted to say in this thread, like how funny it is that people think demon flip throw is unsafe. Sure it is unsafe in the sense some rando moron can Ultra it RANDOMLY. If I had to play by the way rando scrubs play then I would never wake up meaty a person.

If you know the matchup though and you aren’t retarded… well I can only explain this from Gouken’s perspective.

When you first get put into this position you know there are two things that can happen. You are about to be safe jumped, thrown, or low mixed.

You know right off the bat that you have to stand block because palm hits overhead, it’s just a given you have to stand or reversal. Now you know it’s either a safe jump or a throw coming. So you can reversal and get about 200 damage, cause let’s be honest, while you Akuma’s may have gotten Ultraed while trying a throw, I can almost guarantee it wasn’t by a good player. What if he didn’t go for the throw? You just got safe jumped to the tune of (need an Akuma’s help on the damage here) and then right back into the same situation. You got punished for more then 200 for sure, and I can almost bet that when you do the math it was more a percentage of your life then your reversal would have done to him. On top of this, you are right back in the same guessing game which is way more favorable for him then you.

Stood and blocked and got thrown? You are right back into that guessing game.

Even when you block and he palms and you have successfully guessed on that you now have to deal with frame traps vs forward throw right back into the same guessing game.

The whole power of this thing is that you need to block or take a really big chance and everytime you lose you get put right back into the same shit, even guessing correctly the first time doesn’t get you out of anything.

What do you get for guessing right and reversaling a throw attempt? Do you get some safe jump on him? no. Do you get to reverse pressure? no. For Gouken you put him back out on the other side of the screen and you get to fight him from full screen where he is still no slouch.

Blocking the palm does not just get you out for free. Akuma still gets another chance with frame traps or tick throws to put you down and start all over again, and for Gouken that is huge since he doesn’t have something that can just get Akuma off him at that point.

If DF throw didn’t lead to another safe jump set up (much like how Gouken’s DF throw doesn’t lead to shit) it would be one thing but his DF throw is completely shielded by the knowledge that Akuma has a safe jump in front of it and that guessing wrong on it leaves you down a good amount of health and right back in the same situation.

So while throw by itself is completely unsafe, let’s not pretend throw is your only option or that “just blocking” gets you out for free or something. It doesn’t. You know, and we know, you have the safe jump option and what guessing wrong leads to and your throw is protected by that knowledge.

It’s really not THAT unsafe when you put it all together.

Yeah, attacking reversal addicted guy on his wakeup with df throw is stupid and unsafe, not so much on players that know what they are looking at.

Quick, label me a whiner who plays low tier looking for excuses and tell me to learn the matchup!

2474

whatever scrub, learn the matchup or stop bitching about your poorly designed character.

:sunglasses:

2475

Even people who aren’t scrubs will mash out reversals once in a while. When people get mixed up a couple times most panic and try anything to get out. Hell I was playing PR Rog and he did a headbutt on wake up. People will challenge the vortex and if you choose to go for the throw when they throw something out you will eat it.

I don’t think it is unsafe, I KNOW it isn’t safe.

2476

K guy, the vortex is super unsafe and dangerous, that’s why you guys run it first second you get an opportunity to. What was I thinking. :pray:

This is exactly why I haven’t said anything, you guys got it so bad no matter what.

2477

You have no idea what youre talking about. If you honestly believe that the vortex is infallible then you know nothing about the character.

2478

Congratulations, you just performed the straw man argument. Also known as a logical fallacy.

I said the FLIP THROW was unsafe, which anyone who actually plays Akuma knows this. I didn’t say the vortex was completely unsafe, but it isn’t brainless either. In 80% of the match ups you are always trying to read your opponent to place the next option. There are seriously choices you can make where if the opponent guesses right not only do you lose pressure, but you get punished and punished hard.

I’ve lost matches because I went for a vortex option that resulted in me getting punished.

2479

dont’ bother with him. Low tier bitches rejoice when decent characters get shitted on.

2480

Did I say infallible?

Thanks for proving my point.