Just sayin, he really should have this already, it feels good man. Def going to be in his SSF4:X build.
Balrog is almost done at pre testing levels. Unlike many characters Balrog wont be getting an all new move like a target combo or new special move. However his changes are no less drastic. Many of his less used moves have very new properties that make them almost feel like new moves.
As seen above, his Dash Low Smash now has 1 hit of juggle potential giving him the ability to combo off of a headbutt without super or ultra. EX DLS lost it’s armor but now causes a hard knockdown allowing Balrog to do some serious corner carry and then close the distance before the opponent can get up.
His NJ HP now has an actually useful amount of stick control (if you do a NJ HP next to Ryu the movement is now enough to actually jump completely over Ryu and switch sides.)
He now has a cross up with FJ LK which has enough hitstun to allow him to combo into his light attacks from a crossup.
His TAP punches now ALL share the same frame data of 28F startup 7F active 16F recovery. They are -5F on block 0F on hit. The damage was drastically reduced as was the charge times. It now looks like this
All TAPs startup reduced by 2F
Level 1 - Unchanged for damage or charge time, recovery increased by 3F.
Level 2 - Charge time reduced from 121F(2seconds) to 96F (1.5seconds). Damage changed from 150 damage 210stun to 150 damage 220 stun (buffed!)
Level 3 - Charge time reduced from 241F (4seconds) to 160F (2.6seconds) Damage changed from 180 damage 220stun to 170 damage 240stun
Level 4 - Charge time reduced from 481F (8seconds) to 256F (4.25 seconds) Damage changed from 210 damage 230 stun to 200 damage 260stun
Level 5 - Charge time reduced from 961F (16seconds) to 352F (5.9seconds) Damage changed from 250 damage 240stun to 230 damage 280stun
Level 6 - Charge Time reduced from 1441F (24seconds) to 448F (7.5 seconds) Damage changed from 280 damage 250stun to 260 damage 300stun
Level 7 - Charge Time reduced from 1921 (32seconds) to 576F (9.6seconds) Damage changed from 410 damage 260stun to 290 damage 320 stun
Level 8 - Charge Time reduced from 2401F (40seconds) to 704F (11.75seconds) Damage changed from 460damage 270stun to 320 damage 340stun - Also now builds 35 meter on startup instead of 30
Level 9 - Charge Time reduced from 2881F (48seconds) to 832F (13.9seconds) Damage changed from 510 damage 280stun to 350damage 360stun - Also now builds 40meter on startup instead of 30
Final - Charge Time Reduced from 3360F (56seconds) to 1088F (18seconds) Damage changed from 560 damage 290stun to 400damage 400stun - Also now builds 50meter onstartup instead of 30
Balrog’s close or far HP now causes a far flying knockback on air hit further increasing his corner carry options.
Balrog’s far MK is now a low with reduced pushback on hit/block.
MANY of Balrog’s hitboxes got tweaks / respositionings to more closely match the animation or for consistency (such as his close/far LK got the same hurtbox and the hitbox position was moved down slightly, however the hurtbox was also reduced in height so it’s still a viable anti air and the hitbox for close LK was buffed to match far LK.
Similar in vein to the USF4 changes, Balrog’s overheads are more varied now. LP is faster, lower damage, and safer but also cannot be comboed out of except on counter hit. MP is a little bit faster than before and a little bit safer but is only +4F on hit. HP is a little safer but also a little less advantageous on hit though you can combo to mid attacks with it. EX is still +10F on hit and your “hail mary” option.
LP Dash Punch is now 0F on hit, no change to on block.
All HP/EX versions of his dash punch type attacks (Upper, Straight, Low Smash, Overhead, Sweep, ect.) travel slightly faster.
Balrog’s focus attack was completely reworked. The animation no longer dictates the hitbox. Instead it is positioned directly in front of Balrog rather than following the movement of his arm. The hitbox size was improved and the hurtbox is more like standard focus attacks. Overall Balrog’s focus could be likened to Sagat’s now in terms of reach, hitbox size, and hurtbox size. Not fantastic but the reach is noticeably better than normal though the ability to use it as an anti air is mostly gone now. Damage was nerfed from 90/120/170 to 70/100/150
Balrog did get ONE new(ish) move. He now has a STRIKE version of his Dirty Bull ultra 2 that he is able to combo into. This is done with half circle back x2 + 3K, it’s an entirely separate move from the throw version which is HCBx2 + 3P
This new version of Dirty Bull has a 6F startup, so combing into it can be difficult but possible. Options including crMK and close HK. The range on it is decent though not huge.
Regular Dirty bull also got a range buff.
Lastly the damage and stun on Dirty Bull was reworked a bit. Damage for a fully charge U2 was reduced from 399 to 350 but the stun was increased from 700 to 750. In addition the stun for a half charged U2 was buffed from 500 to 525.
FJ HK - sHK - U2 does 445 damage and 925 stun! Enough to stun many characters in 1 combo.
In the current build: NJ HK - sHK - U2 STUN - FJ HK - crMK - crMP - HP Headbutt - HK Dash Low Smash = 614 damage on Akuma without spending a single bar of super meter.
Also, one of the more important changes: Balrog’s pushbox hasbeen reduced around his head/chest during walking/crouching/standing/blocking/being hit/getting up/getting up from a stun. This means Balrog can get closer to you (Probably some new combos he can do!) and you can get closer to HIM (probably some new combos you can do to him!) plus no more weird pushback on wakeup.
Honda’s going to be in the next update as well, here are some of the bigger changes:
Dashes are better
Walk speed is now 0.0475 forward (was 0.045) and 0.035 backward (was 0.03)
Focus now moves him farther forward on release.
His NJ HK (belly bump) now causes a spin out knockdown on air hit. In addition on air counterhit it now does 1.5x damage. Overall damage was lowered to 120 from 130 but on counterhit vs airborne opponents it now does a wopping 180 damage 300stun!
His overhead now has 1hit of armor during frames 8F-29F and the startup was reduced by 1F. The target combo version does NOT have armor, however the startup was reduced to 22F and now does chip damage on block.
He now has command normal versions of his close MK and close HK. They are slightly different than the actual close MK/HK in properties. These are performed with back + MK or back + HK
His crouching HP now causes a techable knockdown on hit.
Far MP is now 7F startup
Far HK is no longer negative on hit and is less negative on block than previously though damage was reduced to 90.
close standing LK is now a low attack.
Far HP damage was improved on later frames and when hitting an airborne opponent
sweep is now 11F startup
crLK is +5F on hit now making it easier to link into itself or crLP
butt splashes no longer fly quite as high up.
His LK butt splash is now a projectile avoidance type move, it’s not great at punishing fireballs or even really good at getting around them like Dudley’s ducking or anything like that. It’s more like Super Balrog’s headbutts in terms of how it works to get around projectiles.
command throws NO LONGER SWITCH SIDES!
Also EX Command throw has had a SLIGHT range increase (now 1.55 instead of 1.52) and is throw invincible.
His super now breaks armor and all versions are now 8F startup.
His LP HHS now moves slightly forward on startup, does 30 stun (previously 20) and has the least pushback on hit/block of all of his HHS. It also builds 25 meter on startup instead of 20. AND it has juggle potential allowing you to juggle an opponent in the corner up to 3 hits.
MP HHS now moves slightly farther forward on startup, and continues to move forward slowly during the duration of the move making it even better for pressuring or getting more hits. The damage was reduced from 30 to 20 but the stun was increased from 20 to 30. Also it now causes slightly less pushback on hit than previously
HP HHS is basically unchanged.
EX HHS now is +4F on block, in addition it no longer can move backwards, only forwards. This allows you to retain down charge while actually using EX HHS! Also the pushback on block/hit was slightly reduced. Holding forward while performing HHS will actually cause you to GAIN ground instead of lose it on block now.
Ultra 2 now has much better range.
New version is out! https://www.dropbox.com/s/wsj7si7okzv624r/SSF4X0.34a.zip
0.34a includes Balrog and Honda and a handful of changes to the existing cast, most of which I outlined earlier but here are a couple of other new ones:
Gouken
farMK now 5/5/13
Far LK can no longer be chain canceled (note: it can be special canceled now and has increased hit stun. Far LP - far LP - far LK - HK Tatsu works as a combo for instance.)
Command normal dive kick (D+MK in air) now forces standing on hit and has 1F more hitstun. You cannot combo if you hit the opponent at the very top of the head but otherwise you should be able to combo at least into a light or close MP.
Blanka
Far HP can now be special canceled on hit/block. Damage reduced from 120 to 110 for grounded hit. No change to airborne hit.
Ooh far.hp is my main footsie tool! My main anti air too, nice change.
Workin on Seth is interesting. I want to emphasize the way he puts his own spin on existing moves for mixups but make him have to play more footsies to get to that point. Stuff like significantly shorter tanden range, slightly worse wall jump (now goes about 2/3rds screen instead of full), his FJ HK still crosses up but the hitbox is a little less wide, slightly shorter distance on forward dash. Of course those are just the nerfs. I’ve also increased his walk speed dramatically (right now it is 0.035 forward 0.0275 backward. Previously was 0.025 forward 0.02 backward). Made his far HP better (basically same as USF4).
One change I’m liking atm is I made his teleports dramatically different. His kick teleports are the same. However now his Punch teleports are different. Specifically they put him above the opponent and work in a similar way to how Dhalsim’s air teleports work. Of course the catch is that Seth has to start the teleport on the ground. His Foward + Punch teleport crosses up opponent while his Back + Punch teleport puts him in front of opponent (both now move forward, his only backwards teleport is Back + 3K version.)
He can actually do sonic boom - teleport and combo from full screen still even with the air teleport version. After an air teleport he falls slower than normal (not as slow as Dhalsim though, almost 2x faster than Dhalsim but only about half the speed that Seth normally falls.) Seth can perform ANY forward jumping attack after his teleport, though all of his post teleport attacks (or if he does no attack post teleport) has 8F landing recovery instead of 4F. It is possible to even do teleport - dive kick as he has a different height requirement on his post-teleport dive kick, but you need to pretty much input the dive kick before you even start falling.
It has a lot of intentional downsides to it but it can be pretty dirty after a knockdown or in the corner. Doing forward + punch teleport against an opponent in the corner will basically put you directly above them. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were unblockables from this unfortunately.
I tried getting the guys to play but I’m apparently the only one that wants to give it a shot. I think they’re mostly put off by the fact that only half of the characters are changed so far.
Well I’m workin as fast as I can lol. shrug sucks but I can’t expect to please everyone. Thanks for trying! (Also it’s even less than “half” it’s closer to 1/3rd lol. Only 12 so far are released out of 39)
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Also, back to Seth: new combo using his new teleport. He can do crHP 2 hits - Forward 3P teleport - air stomps - dive kick as a combo. Shit looks totally marvel lol. He basically does a launcher into teleport into air combo. Probably leave it as is because that is pretty dope and frankly there isn’t any way to remove the “Marvel” from Seth without a complete remake but I can at least change how much he is rewarded for combo video style gameplay vs actually playing footsies.
Actually decided to change the teleports a bit more. Seth now has no defensive teleport option. Reverse DP teleports you in front of the opponent. DP Teleports you behind. Punches teleport above while kicks stay on the ground. Since this would mostly be a flat out nerf to Seth, I did it emphasize his offensive game. The new kick teleports have 8F faster recovery than before. They are invincible 4F less however, but still. 8F faster recovery is HUGE. his teleports are now 40F for the grounded versions.
If this turns out to be too good I might make him have a short counterhit state upon reappearing but not the entire recovery that way it is much riskier to just throw out.
Of course, all things considered playing Seth or Akuma the health / stun is actually a bit more of a factor now that damage is higher. More characters will be able to stun Akuma in 1 combo and more will be able to kill seth in 2.5 combos.
Also, Seth now has a command for his splash move (NJ MK). Holding UP + MK on any forward jump performs the body splash, it’s had an increase to it’s startup AND active frames (now 10F startup, 12F active) the stick control is smaller but lasts longer than before. In addition the move is capable of crossing up.
While Seth’s wall jump has been shortened a bit, he now can cancel into air attacks 2F sooner than previously and he can use his UP+MK splash to gain a bit of the lost distance.
Seth’s damage has been massively reworked, emphasizing his slower normals and his normals that are just used for poking such as far HK (now 110 damage) far MK (now 75 damage) and far MP (now 75 damage).
His far HP is now 26F recovery and has 2F more hitstun and 4F more blockstun making it -5F on hit and -7F on block though it is still very susceptible to focus attacks.
What kind of editor are you using to modify this?
OnoTool, it’s a editor for the .bac/bcm files for each character which contain MOST of the characters data outside of health/stun values a couple of specific moves, and some move properties that are tied into the .exe file.
Video of Seth’s new teleport in action, decided on 6F reduced recovery rather than 8F. This leaves him pretty advantageous after an SPD - teleport. Also if you do Spin Kick - air teleport you can actually mix up post quick rise if the spin kick was mid screen.
bwhaha. For all of you worrying about the teleport change being a nerf. Let me tell you, some of things i’m finding are fucking DIRTY:
(Last video I’ll do for seth probably, at least until his breakdown video at some point. But this Setup is so dirty I just had to share it.)
Eternal, why the hard knockdown on last hit of EX tatsu for Gouken?
Have you considered making his regular tatsu more useful and fixing his counter at all?
I’d love to try this out, I’m going to ask a friend to download it.
man i need to find a way to try this out sounds really sick
I love getting completely nonsensical flags. @Thisguy198 I’m guessing misclicked offtopic seeing as my post couldn’t be more on topic (video of the changes in the thread I made for the mod I’m making.)
Anyways, on to the question from Reipin.
The EX Tatsu change to hard knockdown is experimental, I wanted to improve the risk vs reward ratio on the move without increasing damage/stun. Also, if IIRC Gouken is actually negative after an EX Tatsu on hit, though it throws the opponent full screen. However he might not be negative in SSF4:X given that I lowered the recovery and made him fall faster after a tatsu.
In regards to making his normal Tatsus more useful here are the notes:
I though dramatically reducing startup and increasing the hitbox would make them useful given they’re high damage combo enders and decent but risky anti airs. Right now one combo you can do in 0.34 is sLP sLP sLK HK Tatsu and it will combo for over 200. You can even do crLK - crLP - sLK HK Tatsu BUT the crLK - crLP link is 1F and VERY difficult to time (I can only get it about 1 out of 5 times but that is with limited practice.)
The usefulness is that it does more damage than a palm strike, throws the opponent full screen, and is comboable from lights (While only LP Palm can combo from lights.)
In regards to the counters, I did adjust them a bit. They should be more consistent now as the initial part can absorb 2 hits instead of just 1. It’d be very easy to buff Gouken’s counter IF this were the modified SFxT engine where you can designate high/low/airborne crush status. Because then I could make it 3 part. High beats mid body attacks and overheads, low beats lows only, and airborne beats airborne only. However because the system DOESN’T work that way Gouken’s counter will always be finicky because you have to basically set a hurtbox zone and if an attack intersects with this hurtbox it’ll counter. The issue with that being that not all hitboxes are the same AND it makes it incredibly annoying for characters with large hitboxes. For example even in AE2012 Gouken’s Low and Mid counters will BOTH beat Deejay’s crouching MP. ALL THREE of Gouken’s counters will beat the tornado from Cody’s Criminal Upper.
The only way I can think to make Gouken’s counter more viable AND make it still a skill required move is to reduce the total frame count from 33F to like 30F so it’s a little less punishable on whiff. Changing it to 2 sections wouldn’t really work fairly because there is a very VERY good chance that a large majority of moves in the game would be punishable by BOTH low and high counters. Now this would be ok if the move carried more risk but at 33F total with only 18F of it being even punishable (and not particularly obvious when the active frames end) it’s not particularly risky to whiff it at ranges you expect a poke. Granted it’s not a viable wake up option other than EX version and it’s not going to be viable to beat reversals simply due to how reversals function to break armor to prevent level 3 focus attack charging on wake up from being a viable offensive tactic.
That is my view on it, however if you have suggestions and can provide explanations to them I’m most certainly open.
Yup, my b.
Since I’m here I think you mite be interested in these:
When you get to Dj, could you find out why some of this stuff happens? Especially the mgu thing, that’s always bugged me.
I’m honestly not sure how to fix the first one. The 2nd one I think might be possible to fix simply by adjusting Elf Fuerte’s pushbox as it’s an issue also with Ibuki IIRC.
The cause of all of these (I believe) can be attributed to two factors:
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All hurt and hit boxes in SF4 are actually attached to specific points on the characters model and then moved. Even very displaced hitboxes/hurtboxes are like this. Even C.Vipers seismo is actually positioned based off of a specific body part (It’s attached to her front leg) so if you had her do a different animation for Seismo, even if the rest of the data was the EXACT same the location for the hitbox would be different than her actual Seismo. This also applies to fireballs which are released from specific parts of the body (and why some characters have higher off the ground fireballs than others like Gouken/Seth)
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Almost none of the “reeling” or “guarding” animations in SF4 have designated hurtboxes. This means that instead of having two or three big squares for a character that were designed specifically by the developer to exist at that location for that duration, the game generates hurtboxes automatically based on the character model itself. That is why you can’t hit Chun Li’s front leg for your FIRST hit but if you are doing a combo you can hit her front leg after hitting her one time.
These two things combine to add a high level of inconsistency to the game as it means that often times you are at the mercy of a characters animation itself rather than any sort of game balance. Sakura/Gen’s crouching reeling animations are great example of this.
Now I COULD fix these, and as a matter of fact very very early in development I had considered and tried to do so. The reason however that I wont is not because I don’t want to, but rather that I don’t feel I can do it accurately with the tools available to me. I have no way to actually view hurtboxes or hitboxes in-game as no one has figured out a way to do it. So my entire modding process is trial and error for adjusting hurtboxes or hitboxes. I only have the numbers for their size, and relative position from the body part they are attached to. E.G. “0.1 wide” “0.15 tall” “X position 0.95” “Y Position 0.4” and then two hex values “Unk01” and “Unk02” which tell you what body parts it is aligned with.
So in addition to being difficult, and inconsistent, fixing these issues could ALSO open up a ton of new previously impossible combos on these characters and new issues from that as well.
If I had a way to view hurtboxes I’d certainly fix the issue as best as I can. As it stands I’ll try to adjust specific instances of issues for specific moves such as El Fuerte’s F+MK if I am able.
You should give everyone a new super combo! : D
Given how finicky I am with animations that could take a while. Def on the table and something I’d want to do. Perhaps once I’ve finished the core changes to the entire cast?
Open to suggestions for what sort of supers. I liked when Error gave Sagat back his Tiger Raid from Alpha, but the question remains: where would I find watermelons for Blanka? 