SSF4 Gen Match-ups & Strategies (Old)

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
381

Yes, you have to start off in Mantis Stance in order for Gen’s Stance-Kara-backthrow (SKB).
I guess i’ll call it that since I found this out =D

Yes, it seems kinda irrelevant since Crane walk is fast, but honestly, if you can get this method consistently, I assure you that it’s much reliable and faster to just SKB instead of walking forward, walking forward adds a few frames in between kara-ing the stance and the kara-backthrow. So, you kinda just have to flow both karas in order to get it down.

382

Thanks for the Cammy tips =]
And in my opinion, this match-up is in Cammys favor.
But maybe it’s because I prefer U2 Gen. I’ll post about this later on because I honestly think that U2 Gen is better in a few areas than U1 Gen.

383

I am interested to hear about your thoughts on U2 set being better than U1.

The only pros I can think of for U2 is that it allows you to be more liberal with jump in attacks in Crane stance and can punish some fireballs if TK’d on reaction. Mantis U2 I know is fast enough to punish some stuff but that ultra just feels gimmicky to me. In many matches I dont want to be rushing the opponent down in order to make the dmg from the ultra count.

384

Okay, so I thought about it long and hard, and I do believe that U2 Gen is better in some areas than U1 Gen. The only match-ups that I feel U1 Gen would be more useful would be against Rufus, Cammy, and Fei-Long.

For one thing, these characters have moves such as Dive Kicks and Chicken Wings that they just LOVE to abuse, and an U2 on reaction is definitely not the way to go because it would do crap damage.

Okay, so in terms of usage, U1 and U2 Gen are very similar.
You can’t throw any of the ultras out randomly because U1 Gen can get stuffed by fireballs if not timed well, and pretty much both ultras can only be used in specific situations. U1 Crane has to be used when an opponent is in the air, the same way U2 Crane has to be specific when your opponent throws a fireball, or they’re dumb enough to throw something random that you can punish.

U1 Mantis can be used pretty much the same way as U2 Mantis in pointblank range – I guess you’d call this a random ultra. but in terms of usage, i’d say they’re used the same way. You can combo both Ultras off anything, really. Except U2 Mantis when connected off after an Oga. They’re pretty much the same.

Now, here are the areas that I feel make Gen stronger when fighting shotos and other characters. U2 Gen feels “safer” to me. Because for one thing, when you get super with Gen, your opponent can’t jump in on you, because you can do Crane Super and say hello to 300 damage. And they can’t throw fireballs when you’re in mid-range with them because you can do Mantis Super. pretty much, you shut down a lot of your opponent’s options when you have both super and U2.

Now, say that you have super and U1. Okay, your opponent can’t jump in on you because obviously you can just super your way through. but I feel like your opponent is more prone to jump in on you simply because U1 Crane is super strict in terms of usage, you literally have to ready for it as soon as they jump, or when they’re barely reaching the peak of their jump-in. OF course, it’s easier to land U1 Crane against floaty characters such as Chun-li and Hakan, but Chun doesn’t NEED to jump in on you because her footsies game is powerful. but say that you use super to stuff a jump-in, well, if you’re using U2, then you automatically know that you HAVE to use Crane crouching roundhouse to stuff them.

Do you see what I mean when I say that in terms of usage, both ultras are the same? You’re protected on all sides with U2 Gen, that’s my feeling.
and there’s the added mind game with U2 Gen where all you literally, and I mean LITERALLY have to do is neutral jump in Crane stance one or two times, and your opponent will think you want to do an ultra but really you just want to get in on your opponent to have a footsies fight.

Gen’s footsies are only rivaled by Chun, Fei-long, and a few shotos (actually, Gen has better footsies than shotos IMO), and MAYBE Balrog, but even Balrog has weaknesses when it comes to footsies.
For one thing:

  • (M) st.hp at the right distance can stuff jabs, and your sweep is far superior to Balrog’s in the sense that if you’re right outside his sweep range, you can punish his whiffed poke.

But before I get off topic, I just wanted to say that U2 Gen is the way to go if what you want is a footsies battle, but if you’re looking for raw damage, then U1 Gen should be your number one option. U2 Gen is IMO only for players who are confident with their footsies skills.

And did I mention, even if you don’t connect with U2 Mantis, you’re safe on block. and if you DO connect, you have the advantage of already being on top of your opponent for a mix-up. The only character I can think of that have the same effect are Balrog after U1, and a few others I believe.
Unlike U1 Mantis, if you miss, you’re pretty much eating a saucy 350dmg combo (if your opponent is smart enough to punish well)

So, what are your thoughts on my thoughts?

385

Well I have been messing around with the U2 set since you said you preferred that set of ultras. I have to say I like the U2 set more than I did but I dont know if I am sold on it being overall better. Though this could just be me being bitter about Mantis U2 being kind of bad. Also be ready for a long post cause I have very few chances to talk to other Gen players =P

Note: I totally agree with you on Gen footsies and am gonna try and write up my thoughts on some match ups Ryu, Seth, Rose, Chun but thats for a different post.

I think with either set U1 or U2 your getting a basically “useless” ultra no matter what.

U2 Mantis: This thing man its such a shell of its former self in alpha. I think the worst thing though is its not even a catch ultra. If this could stop jump ins then I would feel somewhat better about it. As it is now its hard to hit unless your punishing something very specific at close range. Even when you do land it you still have to take the initiative afterwards to make the damage count. In the few times I have landed this I usually end up only getting around 300 dmg off of it. And most of the time its because I at least forced a trade. The only real plus is that when you do pressure the opponent afterwards they have to be very worried about your poke/throw/frame traps on wake up and if you do trade it should be in your favor. But you can basically forget this if the opp has an easy runaway option.

U2 Crane: This ultra is the more useful of the bunch by far. Shutting down mid range fireballs is a godsend in many matches. (read Chun Li). The only hard thing here is you cant reaction ultra to close range fireballs because of the time it takes to TK it but Gen should be able to control this space with footise alone so no biggie. Also the opp has to really second guess if they are gonna try and AA Gen now in Crane. I have done the ultra on reaction to several diff normal and special AA attempts. I have to say though its possible this may be more gimmick especially against people who are really good at crouch DPs since I think they may be able to wait long enough that your too low to activate ultra but DP will still hit. I need to test this though.

U1 Mantis: This is the business for two main reasons. Guaranteed easy damage of pretty much any juggle situation and easy full damage punishes. Pretty much any mistake the opp makes from 3/4 the screen away is gonna mean they eat big dmg. Also, though this needs more testing, the range on this ultra should allow for option selects for people trying to teleport, may be fast enough to catch some teleports on reaction and def allows for OSing back dashers. Also while its rare that you can do this the ability to do 675 damage if you land an Oga then super then this ultra has to be respected. (Tested on the dummy with average health at full life)

U1 Crane: This thing seems totally useless. There are almost no situations where you want to use this as it does less dmg than U1 in combos and as you pointed out its very hard to use as an AA unless they do a really stupid jump.

As for Crane super I am not really sold on using it as an AA yet. Unless you know you are gonna kill them out right I would rather burn 1 bar on EX Gekiro. I do like it as an OS in the Honda match though.

As of now the only match up I think you “have” to go U2 is for Chun. You have got to be able to shut down her FB game in order to have any semblance of control in this match. I think in other matches you can force the opp to play footsie with you using Gen’s other tools around FBs

386

The discussion is interesting, so I thought I might throw in some of my useless cents.

Crane U1 is the only Ultra that you can connect out of air-to-air crane j.HKx2, thus is the one of two moves that can connect (+ crane super). If you prefer going air-to-air instead of staying in the ground after you see someone jumping, this Ultra is the one to go. This, IMHO, is quite important because it’s hard to just straight ground AA those who can delay their jumps with a dive kick.

Crane U2 is really useful in my eyes (I mean, for some links on certain characters he does need to jump to connect, so I believe his jump-in combos are more important than others if maximizing damage is really important to you), but Mantis U2 is meh IMO.

I’m interested in hearing how you counter out special AAs with Crane U2. All of them have more active frames than Gen’s invincibility frames, so you need to be spaced out a bit, which will make those AAs whiff anyways.

387

Definitely not useless info. Hell with so few Gen players we need all the info and or discussion we can. Plus you guys have been playing Gen longer than I have most likely. Thankfully Memphis has a lively SF scene and its about 20 mins from where I live. We have weekly fight night gatherings that usually pull in an average of 15 people and in some weeks upwards of 20. So thankfully I get the vast majority of my practice offline which I like.

It could be a spacing situation on my or their part but over the last three days I have beaten SRKs from Ryu, AK and Sak though I lost clean to Ryu’s EX DP. It certainly looked like I would have been hit had I not done the ultra in those cases. I had not checked on the frame data for the reversals and Gen’s ultra though. I will try and test it more today or tomorrow. I wish I could vid capture some of this stuff but I dont have the equipment. Wifey has a camcorder somewhere so I may see if I can get anything decent with that.

I haven’t really found it useful to go air to air with my opponents to force the situation of landing Crane U1. I tend to find I trade more often than not in those situations if I go with the Crane jHK * 2. Though this could be more of a combination of my timing being off with this poke in the air or the chars I am playing against. Seth for example eats Gens Crane jHK for free no matter what spacing or timing I tried. I find if I am air to air I stick with Crane jHP or Mantis jHP since those usually beat most things clean in my experience.

388

I hate U2 set. Here’s a rant about it.

rant

[details=Spoiler]Unless they buff more than just Teiga speed in AE, I’ll probably continue to stick with U1 set.
EDIT: oh, right, and Mantis U2 downward hitbox. How could I forget that?!?!

Yes, it can beat ground-to-air specials and normals, but not reliably. Trading with a lariat, srk, and especially a c.hp makes me want to curb stomp a kitten. Nevermind the frustration of using it air-to-air and having it trade against their j.lk

Gen’s PPP FA range is amazing. Crumple fishing nets me a lot of damage. Mantis U1 gives you an eternity to land it during the crumple, and it connects regardless of forward or back dash after the FA. Mantis U2 doesn’t work against crumpling characters unless you forward dashed and did it quickly, and Teiga needs a friggin chart to help you understand when and against who you can use it. If I crumple you, I’m not willing to settle for bnb damage or a sweep when I’m sitting on a fat ultra.

You can punish things with U1 that Teiga will never reach in time (versions of blanka rolls and headbutts, some air attacks from fullscreen, etc.) Teiga is too slow to be as reliable a punisher as PPP U1. Hopefully AE’s speed buff to Teiga will change this

Comboability is **atrocious **for U2. The only really reliable combos are into Mantis U2, which is only ghey damage. Granted, if done in the right area of the stage you get a perfect oga crossup opportunity on their wakeup from a U2 to take the ghey damage. But it’s not guaranteed and it only works against people who don’t know the Gen matchup.

Combos off the top of my head:
oga -> KKK U2 (perfect spacing/oga strength required )
shakudan (Air 2 Ground) -> PPP U2 (actually not that bad)
ex-hands -> PPP U2 (works against a small fraction of the roster)
focus-attack -> either U2 (frequently impossible if you backdashed)
super -> PPP U2 (in corner, it is flat-out impossible to connect against some characters)
any deep jump-in -> U2 (90% of the roster can probably do this combo…but they don’t get ghey damage when they do it)

focus-attack, super, deep jump-in, and oga. You can do all of these with U1 as well AND the damage is guaranteed (i.e. not ghey damage) AND U1 combos on every character AND you don’t need a certain stage position to make it connect.

Also, U1 gives you these combos:
shakudan Air 2 Air -> KKK U1 (shuts down most jump-ins)
KKK c.lk -> PPP U1 (close in 90% of matchups, corner and G2A in 100% of matchups)
KKK c.lk, KKK c.lk, KKK U1 (corner)
Gekiro AA (mash kick to cancel early) -> KKK U1 (I’m still deciding how useful this combo is)
KKK s.hk (trade) -> KKK U1 (works fantastically if they didn’t use a jump-in with a whole lot of hit-stun, o.w. just s.hk them again (2nd kick) to juggle)

The comboability from c.lk alone is worth it to me. If I push someone to the corner I’m mixing up the baits, the overhead, and meaty c.lk->U1 on wakeups. EDIT: just realized yesterday a better, more easily-confirmable corner combo is c.lk, c.lk, KKK U1…totally forgot I could even do that haha)

The only things I like about U2 is the chip damage and relative safety if both got blocked. But I don’t want to throw a random Ultra out with 8 or 10 startup frames. I want to combo or to punish something with a 8-10 frame ultra. The chip damage from both U2’s isn’t enough to justify keeping it around for that purpose either.

With the speed buff to Teiga in AE, I MIGHT pick it up against fireballers or people I can easily punish with PPP U1 in SSFIV. Until then, it’s just an Ultra I pick when I’m lagging online, playing a noob, or getting bored in casuals. The guys who win tourneys around here would kill themselves if they let me get away with random U2’s against them. At launch they discovered almost immediately that they just need to trade with my teiga and that my mantis U2 can’t punish jack shit and doesn’t do guaranteed damage. They don’t jump enough for me to land a Teiga A2A. I Ultra them with oga crossups, KKK c.lk’s in the corner, FA crumples, and by baiting out moves to punish.

Just my 2 cents. Remember: I ain’t winning tournaments with Gen either :stuck_out_tongue:

EDIT: As I wrote the part about KKK c.lk, PPP U1 in the corner, it occurred to me that I could actually make confirming even easier by using c.lk, c.lk, KKK U1. Hell if they’re not right in the corner you can even take a step forward in between c.lk’s and walk them closer to the corner before using U1. Two years of Gen’ing and this never even occurred to me.
EDIT 2: oh yeah this is the matchup and strategy thread…so uhhh in conclusion, there are no matchups currently where I’ll ever use U2. I can see it being a good way to shut down some of the fireballers with bad recovery, but so far there isn’t a fireballer that I can’t get in against. I’m not willing to sacrifice everything U1 affords me just to hope they screw up and throw a fireball at the wrong time[/details]

389

Oh man, i’m loving the discussion.
Finals suck.

I’ll be back whenever I can to respond to all of your guy’s posts.

390

I just caught a Guy Elbow Drop with U1. Anyone else do that?

391

It’s unreliable though as it depends on how low he starts up his elbow drop.

392

Regarding adding throw range with kara stance switching, I think you’re better off just taking a frame or two to walk forward in mantis stance and kara mk back-throwing.

I don’t know exactly how many frames kara’ing anything adds to a move (my homework assignment for today), but I’d imagine since stance-switching takes some frames, and you’re kara’ing into that so now it takes more frames, then you’re kara-throwing which adds more frames to the throw after all the frames from kara stance-switching, that it can’t be much faster than staying in mantis and just pressing forward,back+mk~throw.

Test it against Ryu. Backthrow him, let him stand, and use your method. Next stay in Mantis, and perform forward,back as fast as you can and use mantis mk back kara throw. Range seems to be the same and it appears to be faster than kara stance switch kara throwing.

393

I agree somewhat to this.

I was messing around with backthrow and doing stance kara throw and then I started doing just mantis mk kara back throw. I’m not sure what I am missing. but setting up the opponent by doing a back throw was still leaving them in mk-kara throw range.

Maybe its character specific. I was trying it with bison. mk-kara throw was working after a back throw every time.

394

I think it is character specific. I don’t need to even tap forward first for T.Hawk but against Ryu I had to

395

Just a FYI. I’m still updating this thread. I just don’t have time to go through every conversation to find out what works. So if you find something and want it posted. PM me to make sure I get it. Otherwise I just think it’s simple match-up conversation that I don’t have time to skim through to pick out what hasn’t been added yet.

Cheers.

396

… I need an answer to Ibuki’s Vortex. I didn’t know it apparently crosses up sometime’s. I either need to be able 2 nutrlize it or… figure out a few options for it.

P.s. U2 OWNS more option’s = more wins…

397

the best thing to do is block it, for all intended purposes if the ibuki player does the timing right. the trick is too look at ibuki and see if she about to be on the other side. you could try to focus the knife but she can easily just neck breaker you, then you back where you started. once you get use to the correct timing that she has to do the vortex for gen you can tell when she fucks up and that can give you a big punish because the knife recovery is really long if she fucks up the timing.

the best thing to do is to keep ibuki out. uses gen longer reach and pokes to keep her the fuck away from you. her only real poke is cr mk and that does not cancel into anything.

although watch out for her overhead it may be slow but she can combo into it. ibuki is all in the mindset of getting that one knockdown to make your life a living hell with mixup.

she a fun character and my 3rd strike main but i cant stand her slow walk speed in this game.

398
  1. Block
  2. focus it> dash away*
  3. if she fucks up the timing reversal it (look at ibuki’s position)

*but watch out if she does her leg slasher thingy because you need to block low at all times since she can alternate high low slashes which leads to another knockdown.

U2 sucks in my opinion. I pick U1 since it can punish way too much and is too viable.

Chunli doing a random overhead heel move and I block it? U1
Honda doing hp headbutt? U1
Blanka doing any kind of ball? U1
Akuma doing an air fireball? U1
Cammy doing EX hooligan throw? U1
Air to air with someone? j.hkx2 U1

And the list goes on, for me his U2 set just takes away alot of his punish options, and make him feel less of a threath…The way I see it is everything that U1 takes away from my opponent (like akuma cannot air fireball you) is a huge part of my game. Besides that, they do decent(ish) damage. His mantis U2 is just…why bother with grey damage if you could’ve gotten real damage in the first place? Crane U2 is pretty good vs fireball characters I guess, but cannot punish as much otherwise and has no combo ability unfortunately.

My 0,02

399

The one thing about Ultra 2 that is so good for Gen is it completely changes his game. If I’m not doing well with U1, i will usually find opportunities to use U2 and I will switch.

Something worth mentioning. I dont see anybody use this Either; Gekiro as AA 2 hits, Crane U1 389 damage! It’s not that difficult to land either. A lot more reliable than Gekiro hitting from the ground. I think the major difference is when you do Gekiro from the ground, you need to hit the opponent about 5 times and push him as high as possible so you land and U1 in time. But if you use Gekiro as an AA, you have already lifted the opponent pretty high, and when you drop you are already pretty low to the ground so you can Ultra sooner. Plus, the opponent hasn’t started falling for as long and he hasn’t reached terminal velocity so he wont fall past you as easily.

I use this a lot now and it works like a charm.

400

For the ultras overall it is probably agreed that U1 set is more useful than U2. I myself feel that the use of the set is complimentary and certain sets are more useful in some situations. I am still exploring U2 as I feel there are still some potential in it. What it confers to Gen overall play that U1 don’t is not to be glossed over too quickly.
Look at Mantis U2. Yes its range is poor and it has this weird damage properties making it challenging to guarantee damage for sure. Yet it is really quite safe on block and you can still combo it off a super like a mantis. It makes it friendly for an addition arsenal to spam reversal against a block string with impunity. You can certainly do the same for mantis U1 but if the spam results in a block old Gen will literally get a stick up to his ‘you know where’. So, trading off ‘combo-bility’ and range for safety and projectile invincibility? Sometimes its not as bad a tradeoff as one would think in certain situations.
The advantages of Crane U2 has already been extolled in the previous posts and for me the ability to exert more air superiority provides an extra layer of depth in terms of defense against jump ins which I and many other fellow Gens still have a problem with on an ongoing basis.
At the moment I choose my Ultra set depending on which character my opponent pick. Generally if he/she picks a character with projectile, I will usually go U2 just so to test out as many situations as possible and gauge the potential of this under utilized Ultra set.
So far from my experience my ultra prefenence set are as follows (I’m biased towards U2):

U1 Definitely: Balrog, Blanka, Cammy, Dudley, E.Honda, El Feurte, Fei Long, Guy, Hakan, Bison, Makoto, Rufus, T Hawk, Vega, Zangief
U2: Chunli, Cody, Dan (he is a shoto?), Gen (For style), Gouken, Juri, Ken, Rose, Ryu, Sagat, Guile, Dee Jay

Undecided:Abel, Adon, Akuma, C.Viper, Dhalsim, Ibuki, Sakura, Seth

Also a few scrubby videos of me using U2.
Messing with U2

Regards
Gecko