Like T.Hawk’s EX Grab XD I’ve grabbed that thing so many times and never get over laughing about it.
If Vega lost his kara throw, THEN I would be devastated.
So because Cosmic Heel was already unsafe and super risky after a blocked one because even at +3 a jab is risky because every body mashes something and is a place Vega shouldn’t be according to some folk here, its kinda alright for it because we shouldn’t even be using it as much as we would like.
It seems a lot of you don’t understand that part of the mix up doesn’t involve you attacking. If you postition it to be at least +2 you can simply walk back and make a throw whiff or position yourself where SRK can’t be FADC.
I swear sometimes :shake:
It’s really funny how you try to bring up arguments for your standpoint, but just don’t think it through to the end.
Yes, you don’t have to do anything after CH, but nether has the opponent, most lights can still pressure you or they can simply walk forward. It just is a freaking gamble… And the bigger risk is, that if you want to space it right the opponent can still walk backwards and make it whiff completely for a free punish.
as much as you have an intresting point of view majin, and everything you say is based on truth.
there is no debate ending whatever move with +1 is better than ending the same move at -1 whatever the range.
of course unless you get a TBS or the other guys gets a free punish we get a mixup situation, still you are better geared for that mixup if you sit on a +3 than if the other guy gets a safe grab
because +3 gives you more options for the mixup and less to him, while -2 is the other way round. now granted in both case all we get is a mixup. how would you like things to be
A - The otehr guy can try his best combo starter at 0 risk and at the very least keep the frame adv you just gave him.
B - You being in a position where he need to gamble and risk a shoryu or a standing grab tech ?
-2 means none of your move beats everything he does with 5 startup or less. It also means you can get grabbed out of scarlet terror/jump since you’ll still be on the ground when the grab arrives. This leaves you with only 5 options, block, backdash, both backlashes, and focus backdash.
Take a character like bison he has a simple OS that beats backdash and both backslashes, so you are left with only 2 options both of which gets beaten by grab and everything else gets beaten by the same basic OS sequence.
If you have +3 you are not that much predictable and he needs to gamble too and he risks at leats 100 hp for guessing wrong. That is a significant difference at high level play.
I never doubted that. But almost everyone is whining about the nerf and how unfair it is, I did too, a few months back.
But now, if I had to choose between the two, I would pick the 6f cr.MK over the CH FA. Of course the best scenario is to have both and invincibility on ST, but I think AE Vega is better overall than Super. And besides, the rumor is, that AE will get patched anyways before console release, so just chill. 
lets see Francy’s said tht everybody mashes throw shoryu after a spaced cosmic heel, so really there isn’t anything being gained there, especially the risk associated with it (throwing out Cosmic Heel). I gave a solution that trains them not to do anything after you land it.
SecondlyIf the opponent walks back while you do Cosmic heel it means you aren’t hiding them and arent using cr.mk kara enough to stop them from walking back. Its really funny how you bring up your point of view with out thinking much through. Oh and im sorry, people mash jabs now after Cosmic Heel? What is this AE? Tell me do you use to throw Cosmic Heel with out thinking much through like you did just now?
BTW, no way AE is better than Super Vega. Having a better footsie tool, when the top characters are mix up heavy characters with tools that say fuck your pokes isn’t going to do anything for Vega. Enjoy mashing cr.mk when Makoto/Yun/Yang are in your face laughing at how shitty and sub par Vega zoning is in AE.
Sorry, forgot we are talking about scrubby online warriors. BTW do you know how to get out of the Ken LP SRK, HP SRK unblockable?
My god, so the solution now in super to get out of the Rufus/Cammy pressure is to mash CH? Thanks man, gotta apply that.
Yeah you get out of it by mashing cr.mk.
Cammy pressure must be so fucking scary knowing she has the shittiest grab range. What you still mash grab and haven’t figured out that she cant grab you after 1 jab? But go ahead and mash Cosmic Heel it’ll be fun.
The point is a 6 frame low isn’t gonna do shit for you when the opponent isn’t interested in playing footsies and knows how to FA dash cancel forward into a grab or just dive you death. Because he knows that once he gets in he can more than match the damage he just recieved, and knows that your only viable reversal is now even easier to avoid and is free to attack on wake up now like he could in Vanilla.
And sorry you think tourney players aren’t suspectible to mix ups. I just don’t know how Makoto did all those mix ups against Daigo and gang. Damn they must have been off that day.
Its called SF3rd Strike SF4 edition. If you want to be viable you need a risky move that pays off with minimal use of meter. Vega lost any real comeback factor, in a game now dominated by low risk high pay off characters.
BTW, even you where saying Cosmic Heel is wack and now cr.mk for the win. Because the gods kept mashing shoryu after you mashed cosmic heel. And Congrats on figuring out that cr.mk is going to be a good move when it already was a good move.
1 more question allmighty player from Europe
what can Rufus do against you when he has no meter? Have you ever tried playing offensively? Or are you still in this delusion that Vega is a zoning character. 
CH can still be used in frame traps to punish crouch techs from kara throw range in AE just like in Super/Vanilla. The difference is that we can’t be pressing any buttons after. Best go for a well timed crouch tech so you can tech a throw and/or block whatever reversal they throw at you (e.g. a shoryu). The only problem is that we can’t use it against Gief simply cuz we can get reversal SPD’ or Ultra’d on block =/
But w/e. It wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be. And the buff to cr.mk is nice for frame traps as well.
Umm… that’s a pretty ignorant comment. Simply because you suck at setting up CH frame traps doesn’t mean the set ups don’t work well in practice against strong players (I’m assuming you suck at it because if you didn’t, you wouldn’t be making that comment in the first place /rape). If anything, watch Makoto at SBO 09 in Vanilla or watch Makoto against Sako/Uryo (especially Uryo) in the Godsgarden tournament. Or just simply watch Makoto play. He’s an awesome example and he shows how strong CH can be.
Even Tatsu has started abusing the the shit out of kara throw/CH mix ups when I last played him. Fuck, even I manage to get the mix up against strong players ALL THE FUCKING TIME here in Socal.
And Vega isn’t a zoning character lol. Just sayin.
That is the whole thing . No one is saying that with good enough reading you cannot exploit opponents cockyness of capitilizing on your -2.
But you are sorely mistaken about reversals. why would anyone in their right mind throw a reversal when you are at -2 and POINT BLANK, when
A - they can use a combo starter of their choice and fish for more damage.
B - their combo starters are safer than their reversal
C - you are most likely going to block low to keep your charge and because you are at -2.
Good players use shoryu when they have too and even under those conditions they are scared of being baited into it.
Lets consider ryu.
Why would he use srk on your -2 over his jab or cr.mk in those conditions or a frame trap f.hp, cr.mp ? Would you ? I wouldn’t.
That kind of things is not exactly necessary,
First it has absolutely 0 debate value it doesn’t matter his level / skill. I ve met high skilled players in europe who understand shit about how/why they win. You can ask a 7 years old about grammar he is not going to be of much help while he uses it flawlessly nonetheless.
2nd it may flame up into “ego” war nonsense.
3rd it is a very cocky assumption.
So I think it is best if you stick to game facts. when someone uses arguments ad hominem it is usually the sign that they have nothing more solid to put to the table.
Never change vega forum <3
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Well that went right over your head. Hint: The DP you’re aiming to block post CH wasn’t supposed to be meant to punish your CH.
Yeah, that was an Ad hominem but that’s cuz I have no interest in arguing over the uses of CH. The topic has been beat to death even BEFORE the release of AE. And I did put out examples of some of Makotos matches that he can look into to see CH frame traps (and how useful they are) in practice against top players.
Honestly, you either get it or you don’t. Simple as that. And some players might choose not to use CH at all which is fine. But to say it’s useless… tsk tsk tsk.
it appears you are the one with things fly over the head.
There is never a reason to punish anything with Dp when you finish a CH at -2 since you can punish more stuff with safer and more potent moves. Read my message (at least once) before you flame it.
baiting a shoryu is something you lose with the new AE CH because noone is ever going to have to resort to that anymore since they are given a whole lot of better options that :
- have better statistical outcome (low hits, overheads, command grabs)
- have better damage potential (combo starters)
- are safer on block ( cr.lp )
and in some cases all three at the same time … bison cr.lk, cammy cr.lk, chun-li cr.lk etc…
People DP your grab attempts with current CH because at +3 that is the only proactive thing that can work and hence we can bait it for even bigger reward than the original ‘grab’. Tomorrow with -2 on block , DP is out of the picture and de facto so is baiting it. It is pretty simple to understand.
Hint : read and think then answer.
And with the release of AE, CH got changed and so the theorycraft around it. If you have no interest in the debate then don’t intervene. Why would you come and insult majin if you had not intrested in the debate to begin with.
CH was a top mixup tool forcing people to risk a dp or a stand up grab tech or a dodge move, it was close to a footsies bypass.
Pedo states that with the frame adv nerf it is a very lame mixup tool now which is true. Pedo used that move as a poke in the past and he certainly won’t in the future, so it is a big nerf for his gamestyle.
Majin says it is not much worse than before and it was never such a great poke because good people still had better reward of the +3 mixup than vega did, which is also kind of true though character dependant.
You are on pedo side but for the wrong reason, you assume majin ignores that the true objective of the CH mixup is training the opponent into reversal shoryu so you can land your ultra/250 damage combo as a punish.
Of course majin knows that, what he says is that
A - good player don’t get lured into that so easily, and in fact maybee it is them training you into successfully grabbing so they can land a guaranteed shoryu-ultra on you later when it matters.
and
B - Even if they do reversal shoryu sometimes after CH, when they hit, they get rewarded on par with what you net when then throw it into a bait block .
In the end his point is that it is more a high risk high reward gamble than a viable mixup at high level play even with the +3, so the -2 changes very little for his gamestyle because he is not the gambling type.
Though you have the right to disagree and try to explain why. I fail to see how bashing majin or anyone else is going to be helpful. All you’ll achieve is making yourself look like a bully, and don’t fool yourself you are scaring noone.
I don’t really care if they try to or actually do insult me over stereotypes (me being from Europe), assumptions (my lack of skill, while never played against me or even seen me play) or not getting the metaphore pressing my point (getting raped).
Thanks for defending me and my point of view, Ajunta. I wasn’t going to post any more comments, but because of your effort and good arguments one more:
I think it’s funny how they seem to be insulted by me objectively stating my point of view (as if I just insulted their mothers…), just because I don’t agree with them 100%. As if there’s only one specific playstyle leading to success.
I never said that CH sucks, it doesn’t and it won’t in AE, it’s just toned down. But it is still a guessing game, and the “mixup” afterwards still sucks. The kara, poke, CH mixup is better, but top players, do not panic and mash throw or jab everytime you get in kara range, they have the reactions and are ready to tech the kara late or even reversal the startup of CH. And yeah, even top players can fall for the “mixup”, but there’s no guarantee and if they don’t you gave up the important spacing for a guess.
Yes, it produces high rewards when it hits, thats the good part, but just because 99% of players mash throw after a blocked one to reset the situation, doesn’t make it a win/win situation. Its a valid tactic and one facette of his game, but it is not the holy grail of playing Vega.
And yes, I think Vega is a footsie AND zoning character, because you CAN zone people out who don’t wanna play footsies and just try to get in. The knockdown screws him over not character not “wanting” to play footsies.
And the last resort argument always seems to be Makoto. Yes, he is (or rather WAS) a great player, but you only seem to remember his big wins, but a lot more than once trying to get in close has cost him rounds, because even he has to gamble.
You said CH is useless in high level play.
Booooooooooooooo
Still appreciate your Vega basics thread though. ???
Yes, me using it against top level players, which doesn’t necessarily mean its high level play 
I’m not so full of myself to consider myself high level, when I cannot play against the best in the world and hold my own on a regular basis.
Possibly more clear: I favor now the positional advantage most of the time, not giving it up for guesses, good players will not let you adjust your spacing back so easily and losing the spacing often results in that one knockdown that will kill you. If you guys wanna go for “mixups” all the time, fine by me, don’t really care, I’m happy I made this realization that weekend, I adjusted my playstyle and have success so far and now I look forward to AE instead of whining about this bad and unfair world.
Still a failure, with many good players unwilling to participate.
Super Cosmic Heel follow up allows you options other than block, including reseting the position or continue the momentum.
You won’t be able to do that in AE. Im still failing to see why Cosmic Heel loses any positional advantage after block.
A - good player don’t get lured into that so easily, and in fact maybee it is them training you into successfully grabbing so they can land a guaranteed shoryu-ultra on you later when it matters.
Which is why you don’t always grab after a Cosmic Heel. Hell if you know they are going to grab do scarlett Terror so you are free to grab them next time when they bait. its all risk vs reward, the reward doesn’t have to be damage it can be psychological. The options are there, people just fail to see them because they are so stuck on this being safe minimize risk as much as possible.
Kouryuu has a point, its ignorant to say a move sucks in high level play based on personal experience, when the highest calibur of players have proven that its a staple and powerful tool. Mostly the Japaneses notably Makoto and now Tatsu.
and you really can’t zone when your normals don’t control a lot of
yeah no kidding.
seriously why cant we have a civil conversation without name throwing like you’re all in 5th grade or some shit?
you said what i was about to say vega is a very strong zoning, footsie and run away character who need to frustrates is opponent. challenging your opponent leads to vega death vega is a cross between akuma, dhalsim and guile. running away from your opponent generate hate when your play vega.
vega normal does control alot of space i see alot of vega player thinking his cr.mp is his best poke will you will be wrong cuz it’s st.mk once you know how to space it you are good to go.
Cosmic Heel on the other hand is a very character specific move i feel it’s main use is to bait cuz you do want to be in the face of your opponent if it not character like blanka for example
yeah
lil bitchez