SSF4 AE v2012 - Official Akuma Changes Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
681

People saying Akuma will be fine in 2012 are stupid. Only 2 people on the planet are doing any real damage with him in his AE state. These nerfs are absolutely ridiculous for a character who is only ARGUABLY the best ON PAPER. Akuma has always been a myth of sorts. The hype of his cheapness never translated to results like it does with Viper, Fei Long, Yun, etc. That’s because **he’s really hard to play well and requires pin point execution, spacing, and timing. Oh, and he just so happens to have next to ZERO room for error. **

He’s still all of that, but lacks dominant pressure after a throw, no longer intimidates people to stand during a demon flip due to palm nerf, and can’t even use st.hk the same anymore vs the 8 or so characters it was actually good against.

Akuma will not be a good character in 2012 if these changes stick unless there are some SWEET unmentioned buffs. He will be mediocre at best. Just look at all the sick buffs other characters are getting - many if not most of which Akuma did not dominate as it was. Akuma is getting nerfed like crazy while 80% of the roster is getting sweet buffs. That means trouble.

I never thought a day would come where I’d seriously consider dropping the character, but if I find the nerfs to be unreasonable to the point where I find myself having to work far too hard to get wins with a 800 health/stun character who’s tool-set is no longer up to par, I may have to learn someone else.

But to be honest, I think I’d rather quit SF4 than get a new main. Akuma is the only character I really enjoy playing. He’s always the one I main in every Street Fighter. It wouldn’t feel right using someone else.

682

Listened to it twice from the 9:33 until the end, and I didn’t hear anything mentioned about Akuma’s changes, only E.Ryu and the 6F sweep (being comboable like Akuma) going back to 7F.

It’s great though getting all of these nerfs (throw is still the worst), especially when Akuma was the only character that really made me want to stick with AE. He’ll still be good, but the risk/reward, and learning curve wasn’t balanced to begin with and it’s going to be even worse than before the upcoming changes.

683

The worst part is these conditions do not exist for anybody else. No other character has to be on point in every fucking aspect of the game to be successful.

Only Akuma.

And he is obviously too good.

684

So make our voices heard in the right area, it is not too late because unfortunately, I doubt Capcom is reading this thread, and if they do, then they are trolling us lol.

685

I could deal with the Beta changes but to nerf his st.HK is fucking retarded, sorry. Im not on a skill level of most players here but i still play Akuma since Vanilla and dont care about playing other characters. And if the “Buff” with EX DF > EX FB really cost 2 bars its again retarded - who cares about this, wtf?

686

I agree with this. We have to at least try to have our voices heard so the character is saved. This is literally a case of Akuma no longer being viable if the changes stick. And no, I don’t mean viable as in “Well, he’s fast and has fireballs and a dp”. A character that is actually scary and can win a tournament is what I mean.

Ono twitter and Seth’s twitter the place to go?

687

Maybe someone has time and will to write a reasonable complain to Capcom on unity board? If so, please do so, I will gladly register there and sign under. Let’s make something that counts people.

I would write it myself, but my English sucks, and I’m not sure I could deliever all the unfairness of the situation, I want them to see that Akuma has the lowest health and stun (except Seth) for a reason, and that reason was that he had good tools which nontheless took a shitload of time to get a hold of and learn to use them properly, and they are just making the same old tools being punusheble
on existent. Why wouldn’t they understand that Akuma is MEANT to be strong but has NO ROOM for error and dies from two combos. It’s like they’re trying to bring Akuma on the same lvl with the other shotos in their AE state or smth.
It would be fair if we played Ryu, or Ken, but we don’t, and why do we get our vortex and normals nerfed, while other characters with normal or above health and stun ratings are getting their shit buffed almost on every lvl. Just give them the comparison with the Ryu changes. Why the hell would they buff him so much and take away so much from us? What are they planning to do next? Give us normal health and stun and take away our df and tp? Cuz it’s sure as hell as if they’re thinking akuma is overpowered and need to be disposed with his vortex and pressure abilities bullshit (in there eyes).

Anyway, someone make it happen please.

688

My english is not good engouh to make it, but It would be very nice if all the Akuma players in here make their voices heard on Capcom Unity in a solid thread.

Capcom said they were listening to all suggestions, so we have to give a try.

689

The baffling thing for me is how heavy handed Akuma’s nerfs are with respect to the amount of people that actually do well with him. If Akuma was over-used and steamrolling people with ease, I’d understand their decision. But Akuma doesn’t perform that way. Few people use him well and all too often do you see an Akuma match end very quickly.

Take away Tokido (who would do equally well with another character given his dedication and skill) and Akuma would barely be a blip on the radar at high levels and in tournaments.

One perspective I have on these changes is that its perhaps going to invoke more run-away and lame styles from Akuma given his drastically reduced ways to open opponents up. I feel with the hk nerf one of the previous nerfs should be rolled back. I have absolutely zero confidence in Capcom doing this however.

The only thing we can hope for is a stealth buff to damage or stun in some areas (sweep, HP shaku from lp FADC, EX tatsu) to make up for his reduced options. Right now I’m on the fence as to how all these awful changes impact him. I still feel he’s a decent character, but its becoming really difficult to justify his poor stamina when his abilities keep getting toned down so much.

I’m very curious to hear Tokido’s thoughts and also the skinny on this fs.hk change. For example, does it now have a larger hit box so it can be realiably FADC’d into ala vanilla? I see this as a reasonable ‘buff’ considering it only does 80 damage and an FADC in this game now incurs massive scaling. As it stands, fs.hk stands to be quite a liability and a sure fire way to reset/nullify any advantageous pressure position you find yourself in.

Again, I still feel Akuma is a good character. But these constant negative changes that directly impact his feel and set play abilities are really starting to impact his viability and ultimately how fun he is to use.

690

I think the thing to do first of all is to get at Ono and Seth on twitter. If they get enough messages they will act. In the meantime we can work on something for the unity board. How does this sound as a first draft?

"Dear Capcom,

We are writing to express our sincere disappointment with your balance changes to Akuma for SSFIV:AE v.2012. We feel as though the changes go too far in nerfing a character which was already well-balanced and which required many, many hours of practice to master.

The addition of the two extra frames to Akuma’s forward throw recovery combined with the change to the move properties of the Demon Flip Palm, which makes it possible for all characters to block it while crouching, takes away many of our options for mixing up our opponents on wake-up. When these changes were announced we assumed that this meant that you wanted to change Akuma’s playstyle to be less focused on mix-ups and more focused on footsies. This was always going to be hard work for Akuma given his low health, easy stunability, low stun output, lack of active frames on his normals and the weird hitbox on his fs.HK which meant that it whiffed on the majority of the cast.

However, the latest balance changes (in particular changing fs.HK so that it -2 frames on block) have left us dumbfounded because they mean that not only have we had our mix-up abilities nerfed, we have now also had our footsies tools nerfed, as fs.HK will be punishable on block by several characters even if both hits are blocked, and it will also no longer be able to be used as part of a frame trap.

Moreover, the majority of Akuma players feel that the buffs we have received are hardly worth the name, given that they relate to Demon Armageddon (which in the majority of match-ups is far less useful than Wrath of the Raging Demon) and the ability to use EX Zanku Hadoken during an EX Demon Flip. The latter will likely be too costly in terms of meter to have any application in higher level play.

Many of us have invested hundreds of hours into mastering Akuma and are now seriously considering either switching to a new character or quitting SSFIV:AE altogether due to these changes. If they were designed to remove unblockable moves and to make some of our most favourable match-ups less lopsided (e.g. Zangief, T. Hawk) then that is admirable. However, please bear in mind that these changes have wider consequences on the viability of the character. As such, please consider the following changes, which we feel represent a reasonable compromise: please increase the size of the hitbox on Akuma’s fs.HK so that it hits twice on low block for the whole cast. We think this would be a fair change because it would not make any of Akuma’s already favourable match-ups any easier, but would make our least favourable match-ups (e.g. Yun) more manageable.

Signed,

-Akuma players"

What do you guys think? Feel free to suggest changes. Also feel free to post it up on Unity. I don’t have an account there. Maybe they will take something like this more seriously than Twitter?

691

As desperate as this may sound, I’d really support something like this. It’s about letting them know these changes really displease the fan base and the players.

What I’m really baffled with btw is the ridicolousness of the EX Flip into EX Air Fireball “buff”. Like we’re stupid enough to go full screen EX Flip on a decent opponent who’s not blocked by blockstun. Like, they jump back normal and what? I’ll do 40 damage and reset them? Great. And like hell I’m gonna burn half meter for that, I’ve gotta be desperate just to use that as a get-in tool.

Congratulations on the dumbest buff ever.

I don’t really see why they’d want to turn Akuma more into a runaway style character, it’s possibly the most annoying type of character in the game.

Not only that, air fireball are probably the thing which most annoys novices, since they can’t deal with it. They’re gonna piss those people (who incidentally are the ones handing them the most money) even more if the character turns out to be more difensive. Which will happen, because after a blocked st.HK we are now to back down or risk a counterhit.

Well they didn’t mention any change (aside from the -2 thing), so I take nothing will change in that regard. The disadvantage on block alone is huge, why lowering the damage?

I’m at loss of words when thinking that they boosted the damage on Bison’s st.HK.

A “good” (which is far from overpowered, and places at tourneys because of 2 of the best players around the world) character which is undeniably not novice friendly should not get hammered like this, I think we can all agree on it.

692

Its a shame that Akuma might be the only character in Street Fighter 4 who got nerfed in every single update but it is what it is I guess. The one thing I hate is when other people act like anybody can pick up Akuma and play like Tokido, Infiltration, Toxy or other awesome Akuma players and you can’t. What makes me nervous is that when this patch comes out all the great Akuma players are going to drop him for another character.

693

I agree with this, and would sign under it, though I think we shouldn’t demand any changes from them, and I don’t really want a better hitbox on HK at the cost of -2 on block. Because in the matches that it actually hitted twice on block it was mainly used as a frame trap and a pressure tool, if it will have -2 frames on block it doesn’t really matter whether it hit’s twice on all the cast, or not, againt’s any decent player you will be forced to hold down back after it, and that’s putting you from an offensive position to a defensive right away. What’s the point in that?
Anyway I think we shouldn’t ask them to fullfill any of OUR wishes, I think what we should ask, is that they stay away from touching him the way they did, undo the throw nerf and stHK nerf. That’s all I personally want, you can keep the palm nerf I’ll give them that much.

694

I really don’t think they will reverse any of the changes, especially not the throw and palm nerfs. They might undo the fs.HK nerf if they do decide to give us a buff, but I’m doubtful. That’s why I think it’s better to suggest a buff because that way it looks like constructive criticism and they’ll be more willing to listen.

Your point about the frame trap thing is a good one. However, I’m not sure that keeping the frame trap is better than gaining the ability to pressure, e.g. Ryu or Yun, with fs.HK. It’s very possible to get hits off that thing into full combos and it’s good for gradually making ground and pushing your opponent to the corner. But besides, the whole point of the fs.HK nerf is obviously to even up the match-ups with grapplers, so Capcom will want to keep that. The thing with the bigger hitbox on fs.HK is that it would still even up the match-up with Zangief, etc, but it would also give us something good to work with against our tougher match-ups. Yeah the fs.HK frame trap is really good but it can’t be used on 70% of the cast anyway.

695

Well it’s not that I want to disagree, I just told my opinion, I think that -2 frames neglects any pressure abilities we had againt’s those 30 precent of characters that it hitted twice on. So even if it does hits twice on all the cast, what’s the point of it, if you would be forced to hold down-back after it, what kind of pressure is that? That’s all fair on at least a semi-decent level of play though, againts the average player it doesn’t matter, most of them can’t consistently punish stHK even if the second hit whiffs.
But if everyone agrees we should ask for a better hitbox by the cost of -2 frames, I will gladly agree. Let’s hear what others have to say, and folks let’s make this quick, or else I feel like it will be too late.

696

This is well written. I would just take out the request at the end for st.hk hitting on all crouchers. I don’t think that’s a fair change at all. I don’t think too many people would trade away nerfed throw set play, demon flip palm being crouchable and -2 on st.hk just for that. I think that you should basically just voice our concerns for the nerfs(as you have) and we’ll let them worry about what they need to do to fix it. I mean, or we can get together and come up with a list of rational ideas. I prefer the former, but at the very least, take that s.hk on all of the cast “fix” out because it doesn’t speak for the whole community. We shouldn’t put ourselves in a position to compromise, because to be honest, those changes weren’t fair. He didn’t need to be touched at all, so screw compromise. Just fix the damn character. Give him his throw and demon flip palm back at least. Maybe leave the st.hk nerf alone so characters like Adon and Abel can deal with it better. I can deal with that nerf.

Otherwise, great job :slight_smile:

Let me know when it’s posted, or what I can do to help.

697

I’m not married to the fix I proposed or anything. I don’t mind taking it out at all.

Let’s see what more of the regulars have to say. I guess it will come down to either proposing reversing the fs.HK nerf or coming up with a buff of our own that we could all (or the majority of us) agree on? Suggestions are welcome. E.g. tatsu sweep on the whole cast? Health buff to 950 (Cammy/Makoto level)?

There are far better Akuma players than me on this forum so I want to hear what they say. I don’t want to post this on Unity and have someone from Capcom read it and think, “this kid doesn’t know what he’s talking about”.

698

Oh god, anything but health\stun boost, anything but that I beg you! If they would do that (or if we were to ask for that) that would turn akuma to just another shoto with crappy footsies and a non excitent vortex (well they are already on that track of turning akuma to Ryu with a teleport). So cuz of that we need to make our voices heard, we don’t need buffs to our health\stun, we need our vortex and pressure back. I’ll say it again, Akuma is MEANT to be strong but has no room for error. I want it that way, if I would want to play an average character with normal health I wouldn’t pick Akuma in the first place.

Anyway, I think we should skip entirely the whole ‘our suggestions’ thing in the end. We just need to pinpoint how stuiped and unfair their changes to Akuma are. We can easily do that. Forward throw nerf to get rid of the unblockables? I’ve seen Tokido still managed to do it againts Makoto, and even then, it’s not our fault that it is unblockable, it’s something within the game, fix youre game Capcom, don’t ruin one of ours most important tools for vortex cuz of youre laziness.
Far standing Roundhous nerf? To make it easier for Gief and Hawk to slum us? As if the fact that all they need to win a round is ONE command throw and an ultra isn’t enough? And they still will have a tough match-up againts Akuma, it’s the teleport and zanku hadou that kills them, not our roundhouse move. But instead, it will surely take away another big aspect of our game, the frame traps and pressure which only works againts a bunch of characters anyway. Not to mention that the damage nerf on it is ridicilous too, it’s not enough that it whiffs on 80 precent of the cast, and that it will now be much more punishible and have much less uses, it will also deal less damage when you actually got lucky and landed it? Bullshit.
We can show them that their nerfs don’t accomplish ANYTHING that they were originally aimed at, but instead only make Akuma worser in SO many situations that it’s becoming harder to find excuse for investing so much time in him. Their ‘slight’ nerfs which are aimed to fix only a couple of certain situations are going to affect Akuma on so many levels that I sure as hell wouldn’t dare to blame anyone for switching to another character. And I so don’t want that, I so love this character, I’ve played him since day 1 of vanilla, please just fucking think for a second Capcom.
The only reasonable nerf I can agree with, is the palm nerf. The move has no recovery, breaks armor, catches backdashers, has so many nice OS setups, is an overhead and absolutely safe on block or whiff, so yea I can see why they would tone it done a bit, that actually accomplishes something in terms of balance. But forward throw and stHK nerf are absolutely pointless and non reasonable, we gotta show that to them.

699

Ditch the suggestions concerning fs.hk and this doesn’t read too bad at all.

I just feel that Capcom are hitting Akuma perhaps a bit too hard. Interestingly, many people that don’t even use him feel he’s being messed with too much. I think that speaks volumes. Meanwhile, Fei and Yun ostensibly remain unchanged while Akuma is having his set plays messed with and his oki game (which he relies on to do damage, not stun) ostensibly cut in half.

Rather than compensate for his crippled oki game nerfs in the previous tests, they bust him up even further.

Last I checked, the majority of the cast received some great buffs yet Akuma receives nothing. Frankly, I’m not after buffs either and I’d perhaps be OK with one of the choices Capcom have decided upon, but all three of these nerfs together is disappointing to learn about.

Rather than going into 2012 excited for renewed challenges against positively reworked characters and a refreshed game, I’m instead feeling kinda meh and deflated knowing my character of choice has (yet again) been rendered sluggish and crippled.

Still, nothing is final (yet) and we’re yet to see this recent bout of nerfs in action. But on paper at least, things are looking kinda grim for Akuma right now - especially when everyone else is getting a bunch of buffs or at least positive changes.

I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I remain utterly unconvinced Capcom will pay any attention no matter what logic your argument resonates with, but best of luck to you. For me personally I’m just gonna wait for this patch to drop and see how things pan out in terms of whether I stick Akuma out with these nerfs or put him on the chopping block. I suspect many others who use him are considering the same.

700

I agree, we shouldn’t ask for any buff over AE Akuma, that would only make look like the umpteenth whiners - though I’d mentioned how they fucked up with EX Tatsu, the thing worked fine and it still glitches now just like in SSF4. Tuning down damage and stun was bearable, but the move now is both glitched AND a waste of meter.

Forget about buffs, asking them to actually understand how to balance the game, question their methodology fo" balance" is what we should focus on.

This is exactly what I believe we should stress. The fact that the whole cast got nice buffs (or characters were essentially untouched), people have soomething to look for, something which keeps them interested in the game.

Look at Viper: yeah they nerfed the damage, but the juggle possibilities off EX BK looks legit and interesting. They removed throw invincibility to EX Seismo but added it to Fierce TK, meaning you still won’t OS Throw her. In the very end she just got some needed damage nerf (and she still tops the game in that department) and something which will vary her gameplay.

And what does Akuma players have to look forward to? Punches in the faces basically await Gouki. I mean easier to deal with vortex (Palm nerf), weaker options off forward throw (+2 recovery on fwd throw), weaker pressure during ground game and less damage. They touched the vortex, the ground game and the damage, what more could you possibly nerf?

Some people said these nerfs “subtle” or “negligible”, but really? To me, this is stuff you should be doing to characters who really have a strong advantage across the boards, which break balance. If we look at Akuma at Akuma’s matchup, where’s this huge advantage?

The buffs Akuma received are so ridicolous I’d love to know who actually came up with that garbage.

I too agree that nothing will change, but I really think we should let them know we’re not pleased with all this shit raining on Akuma.