This post is a mockery to anything sensible.
You brought up zoning ability. You brought up anti-airs (dp). You brought up normals. (Seth cr lk’s) You brought up movement (dashes). The fact that you have so little clue as to what is going on in this game and what you previously said makes me wonder if you are just an immense troll or just plain out to lunch.
Quit wasting time with this wacked out nonsense.
How is Mike wrong? Viper and Seth have terrible fundamentals and below average zoning abilities. You then proceed to call him a scrub which is basically showing that you don’t understand half the words you throw around.
Here, watch this!
Akuma has great mobility, the best jump in attack in the game, the best teleport, amazing zoning, and is one of the few characters that can push a character out of mashing range with a tight block string while maintaining pressure.
Looks cool, right?
Seth also can’t combo off of fst.MK or fst.HK, his longest range pokes. There are more things wrong with your post, but since Mike has a great point at the end of his post, I won’t bother.
And lol, DP/backdash aren’t fundamentals (well, okay, backdash is…but you have to take into account forward dash and walk speed when considering it.) Seth’s cr.LK is shit btw.
more insults. yeah, youre cool.
in my origional attempt to form an intelligent conversation, i said i would give them both a pass as far as AA because they at least have DPs, even if vipers is weak. so fair enough, that would be 1/4 of my original points
just so we are clear, you think dashing around the screen is a fundamental solid form of movement?
crlkX4=footsies?
and you still havent said anything about how their zoning is effective or at least better than sub par. you said its ok. tell me how its ok. thats how real life conversations work
Have you even played Seth? Do you even know how to play footsies with him? Does he have the best footsies? No. But he also isn’t the worst. His footsies are decent.
Actually far st hp is his longest poke…
Anyway you missed the point. I am speaking of normals that can be special cancelled. From max distance Akuma cannot combo off his cr mk, Seth can. That is the point - Seth’s normals are fundamentally good for different reasons than Akuma. (and some reasons are the same)
no they arent. seths footsies are bottom 10 in the game for sure
normals=buttons
walk speed+normals= footsies
footsies=ground game
seth has some decent buttons, but that dosent constitute a good ground game, or even a mediocre ground game. since a great deal of footsies involves whiff punishing, characters at least need middle of the pack walk speed. seth is bottom 2 as far as that goes. gief gets by because his backwards walk is actually pretty fast and he has much faster far normals. but anyway, seth cant bait another character into whiffing a button. his footsies, meaning complete ground game, are ass
also staying free mains seth. and ive never seen any high level seth actively poke with far fierce. might be because its (srk wiki listed)-15! on block, and 13 frames on startup. compare that with roundhouse which is 10 frame startup and only -3 on block
It has nothing to do with being cool. I addressed your points and pointed out that you do not understand what you were talking about.
I can’t point out that you don’t know what you’re talking about? Show that you actually do know. I mean the fact that you completely forgot what you wrote two posts ago isn’t really convincing. But hey I could be wrong.
Is that how you start an intelligent conversation, by asking posters if they know what fundamentals are?
Here I thought it was trolling.
You know Viper’s DP is actually fucking amazing since it easily combos into ultra for no meter. It’s just bad on wake up. Wake up is only a single aspect of what DP’s are used for in this game.
Yes dashing is a fundamental in this game, because as a normal part of all characters move set exists the dash. In ST dashing wasn’t a fundamental because ST had no dashes. Many posters idea of fundamentals stems from old school definitions of it. In this game fundamentals have been expanded from the ST days.
It’s just a safe way to attack and avoid the most common defense in this game - mashing. Not alot of characters have such a luxury.
Seth has good fireballs. 14 frame startup. 47 recovery frames and variable speed. His fireballs on par or close to it as most of the fireballing cast. What makes his zoning bad? It’s not his fireballs, dp or his far standing fierce his primary zoning tools.
Viper has seismo zoning. While different still very effective and in many ways more brutal.(on block) Harder to escape once blocking, does more chip and more useful for punishing counter zoning. Sure she isn’t Sim or Akuma, but she also isn’t useless either. Her zoning is decent. Worse in some aspects and better in others.
IDK, Poongko’s footsies look ok to me, especially considering he is fighting Infiltration probably a top 3 best footsie player in the world.
And he pokes with far st hp…
to be honest, its a fair question if you call 3 of the most fundamentally deficient characters in the game, fundamentally strong. try going into the viper or seth forum and tell them that their characters are fundamentally sound. i dont think they would be 1/4 as nice as im being about it
-moving along, vipers dp does combo into ultra but it does 70 damage, is throwable, has 7 frame startup, has a terrible hitbox, and gets stuffed by everything. its definately a bottom tier dp. maybe only dudley and gen have worse dps because theirs arent inv.
-yes dashing is universal, but its too much a liability to be used as a fundamental tool. its a 15+ frame commitment to not blocking. you cant base a ground game (offensive approach, spacing etc.) around dashing. when seth or any other slow walk fast dash character wants to approach cautiously, they have to commit to dashes, or jumping. dashing is much more of a system mechanic than a fundamental character strength
-im almost certain that there are only 9 characters who cant chain normals. and most of them either have mash moves(hands,elec) or are designed not to be strong up close. im not buying cr.lkX4 as a strong feature in a character. akuma could jab3X and walk back for example. most characters can do something similar to avoid mashing
-seths zoning isnt the worst, but i wouldnt call it good. it keeps out gief and t.hawk, but his fireballs have too much recovery to be used as a regular strategy on the rest of the games close range fighters. combine that with his terrible walk speed for setting up those slow fireballs, and he cant control space well at all. most characters can easily set up the spacing so they can empty jump over a fireball and land in a spot where his dp whiffs. this is different from a shoto for example who could first keep the proper spacing to force a jump that can be AAed, and secondly they could simply walk forward into a spot where they could poke the characters landing with low forward or whatever
-siesmo zoning is good for one thing only. chip damage, and making you block so she can TKBK to get in. once again, works against gief and hawk, but thats it.
i see poongko avoiding midrange play almost completely. he either tandens, backdashes or jumps in or back to full screen. also im counting one far fierce, but im skipping around a bit. definately not a go to normal
And that’s the problem isn’t it - Seth and Viper aren’t fundamentally deficient to bottom 2 status.
I’m not really concerned about what srk forums think about their characters. Watch Poongko play. Does he look fundamentally deficient to you?
Viper’s DP is fine as an anti air. OMG you may have to time it. Whoopee.
Yeah it’s a bad DP head to head with other DP’s, however it has way better horizontal range than most and is braindead easy to combo ultra from.
It’s stronger in some areas and weak in other, like I said.
Sorry bud but great players like Poongko use it with little problems. It’s proven useful at a high level.
Seth’s string pushes you out of range. Others can chain normals and still be safe but are still in range to be mashed on even if it results in a blocked FADC.
There’s nothing wrong with it. He can counter zone just fine and zone out every non fireball character. He’s probably top 10.
Akuma, Sim, Ryu, Sagat, Evil Ryu, Gouken, Guile, DJ, Juri, then I would put Seth.
Sorry bud 2 and 3 frames more recovery doesn’t put him in shit zoning tier. His zoning is good. Not the best, but good. As far as walk speed he has long range normals and a far better DP than most for that. He also has stuff like tanden engine if you keep trying to stay out of range.
We don’t see many zoning Seth’s probably because he is better as a balls out character. Doesn’t mean he can’t zone. Look at Infiltration Akuma. He would rather footsie all day so we don’t see alot of zoning from him but Akuma the character is still good at zoning.
Actually works on most everybody. Except maybe Fei, but not everybody has ex chicken wing.
He also engages Infiltration and holds his own.
Nobody said it was a go to poke. It is useful situationally, like most all characters normals including Akuma. Not everybody gets spammable mindless pokes. Most characters have to pick their spots and use the correct poke.
Quit jabbering like fools.
Here’s some categorised 2012 footage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1hZI9lF9QQ
31:00 Akuma v Guy (in progress)
33:00 Akuma v Rufus
36:35 Akuma v Yun
37:48 Akuma v Makoto
Any clue as to who are the akuma/yun players? I heard them mentioning umehara’s name during the match so could it be daigo? The akuma also looks quite similar to tokido.
No idea about the Yun, though the Akuma is Tokido.
Yun is probably kazunoko since he was attending the tournament that was held right before the loc. tests.
I think Lollo is right, I read somewhere that it was Kazunoko.
So do we have any definitive word on the throw nerf yet? I.e. is it a straightforward nerf, with no change to throw distance or dash speed or anything like that? If so, bummer…
This today from Killian (via Eventhubs/Capcom Unity):
i think we are going to have to agree to disagree considering that the posts are going to get bigger and bigger, and its off topic discussion. im not saying seth and viper are bad characters. they are actually pretty good. i just dont think it has anything to do with sf fundamentals.
think of it this way as a parting shot. if you took away both of their mixup tools, how would they do then. IMO pretty terrible
Well I didn’t say they had GDLK fundamentals. They are characters with decent fundamentals and amazing mixup. Obviously if you remove the amazing part of their game they would be handicapped greatly.
If you took away Akuma’s tools he would do terribly also. He has low health, poor stun output, poor stun resistance, barely any active frames on his normals, poor range on his DP, wonky hitboxes (e.g. second hit of fs.HK whiffs on half the cast), and his damage output is nothing special. He would not be viable.
Your point?
That’s true. If you remove Akuma’s mixup he becomes an extremely shitty Ryu.