Any tips against Juri?
Turtle ryu wins match up…
Dodge her obstacle course and sit out side of her crouched normals range. At that point you win. If she commits, whiff punish, blow her up or jump in. If she jumps in, dp. If she fireballs mid, mix up how you deal with it. Focus back dash, stand block, crouch attack or jump tatsu around it. Mid fireball is a trap, it locks you in place while she does whatever she wants, don’t fall for the trap. Eventually, she’ll overhead and pinwheel in on you. If she over heads in on you, she can’t combo so just back dash into position again and stuff any further attempts with crouch or stand strong. If she thinks she can pinwheel in on you, the distance stops her from fadc-ing so you get the full punish. If juri player thinks they are smart and does light pin wheel, you should have practiced in training mode the timing for the punish which is very quick. I believe that light pinwheel vs a crouched ryu can be reversaled u2. On her wake up you can safe jump her. If you really want to be a dick, you can repeat throw her on wake up. She has no throw invincible reversal (ex pinwheel runs out of inv before it becomes active,) she has to jump… lolzers… Her marvel ultra is ass, you can reaction block her overhead and her super long dash makes you run into normals because people know. She can only go upwards or parallel in strength with her normals. That means that she gets a maximum of three hits before she has to overhead or loses the opportunity to. She can frame trap you with whiffing close forward’s second hit and going into close roundhouse. Another one is close fierce punch (back flip kick) into ex pinwheel, but you can punish this one (just block after she back flips.) She has to spend meter to fadc a fireball to get back in after you block her out. Basically, when she activates her U1, if you can block, you’ll liquidate her meter too as she tries to stay in and fails. She really needs a command grab. Lastly, a random shoryuken might make the juri player cut themself. I don’t know much about juri’s ex dive kick, it could be dangerous…
I played juri in super because I thought she was cool. And she is, but any shoto can lame her out easily. Her walk speed even though buffed is slower than ryu’s, her jump goes nowhere, her dive kick is dp punishable and her dash is exploitable in the way makoto’s is, but she doesn’t have a command grab to compliment it. The only real advantage she has is her obstacle course, her ability to punish hadokens on reaction from any distance (other than too close) and her corner pressure. Lol, juri, putting people in the corner? 5.5 - 4.5 ryu’s favor…
@tinkle thank you so much. Holy shit laugh is gdlk
Even though Ryu shouldnt be losing to oni, if anyone is still having problems with the matchup.
In my opinion its 5.5-4.5 or 6/4 ryu, but wao and omh have it 5-5.
Nice, btw, its 5-5 because of how oni operates with meter. It’s not as good as evil ryu who can build a ton of meter because of axe kick loops, but once Oni has three, he basically has meter for the round if not the rest of the match. Ryu isn’t as efficient with building or spending meter. Oni also has the same chance as every character to guess correctly on a hadoken or normal before ultra becomes a threat. One correct jump is a ton of life gone and a ton of meter for oni. If ryu tries to be in on oni, what is the most he can do besides a frame trap? Oni on the other hand has not only a good handful of gimmicks that you will not be able to keep up with, but he also has more frame traps. Also, Ryu hates step kicks and sometimes a match ends up being who does and doesn’t rock paper or scissors after a step kick. That’s typically a rock paper scissors that ryu loses even when he wins. Gamble less, get pressured hard or gamble more and get baited. A shoryuken hit for ryu is maybe some light pressure or a chance to run away, a shoryuken hit for oni is a chance to kill ryu…
I’m not ignoring what you have posted, I just feel that either you overestimate what Ryu has on top of underestimating Oni’s advantages on simple/solid tactics. Ryu is a simple character, match ups don’t go that deep vs him. Most victories for Ryu simply rely on consistency vs everything, which gets difficult after a while…
I just feel that if both people play solid then ryu usually ends up winning in the end. From the start of the round if as long as ryu doesnt make a mistake and doesnt fall into a huge life deficit he doesnt need to take risks to win vs oni.
-Fireball war ryu wins (normal fireball vs normal fireball) oni needs to utilize his electrics/answer plasma with plasma to keep up. From this oni can be baited to throw impropery spaced/timed fireballs easier then the other way around(lower recovery+not full screen or just long start up in the case of the electrics can be jumped on reaction)
-If the ryu is good enough on D he can start focusing fireballs to build ultra meter and once ryu has ultra the risk vs reward shifts in ryus favor vs oni on jump ins(both chars have equally good chances of jumping in)
-when oni gets ultra the risk vs reward doesnt shift to him on jump ins, he cant dp into ultra a jump in because of pursuit properties, and he cant dp fadc ultra a jump in anymore because of the 1st hit dp fadc causing a hard knock down now. He can up ultra but thats for corner specific and very meaty cross ups.
-a shoryuken from oni doesnt lead to any follow ups that would kill ryu unless you meant the F+hk follow up which throws ryu across the screen. For that particular follow up you need to have dp with either light dp(risky because no upper body invincibility on onis light dp) or a medium dp very high up on ryus jump arc.
Here is OMHs guide for the ryu matchup for refference, but note that the little forward throw into corner into a neat little setup doesnt work anymore. Close fireball pressure in the corner doesnt work because your -8 on block and sweep punishable on fireballs done up close, so fireball/chip needs to be done farther out, effectively giving ryu room to fight his way out of the corner.
IMO the risk vs reward for onis gimmicks aren’t in onis favor if you take a look at each gamble the amount of things they beat vs things that will punish them is like 2 to 4 or 2 to 5 depending. Gimmicks aside heres Wao vs Daigos set after waos initial terror run in topanga.
Keep in mind this was before onis Health nerfs/dp/stomp nerfs. I dont know if the stepkick buffs or sweep buffs do much to compensate for this matchup(i dont put much value in onis stepkick to begin with)
If you can force neutral play and not get sucked up into the gimmicks ryu has the advantage imo.
I’m off work, so I’m not going too deep into this. Everything we have spoken about is in these two vids of Sanford’s Oni. I couldn’t get a ryu match of him straight zoning with fireball and I feel its because he can’t actually zone Oni. I did see this great match ft10 vs velociraptor where even though he can zone right and put a hurting on Oni, Oni just gets in.
Here is a match between Sanford and Solid. Solid is indeed a solid ryu player. Watch as Sanford abuses the match up to force Solid to stop playing the textbook match up. Then Sanford goes nuts and solid can’t adjust… Also, everything I said is actually in this match, from a round being lost because Ryu didn’t do enough damage to close it out, a match getting lost because of step kick rock paper scissors, a round lost because you can’t be solid vs everything and the rest of the stuff in my post. Its all there in these six rounds. Solid is no slouch either and its definitely not his first time playing Sanford…
So is the life of a Ryu player, you have to be solid for so long that it makes even winning match ups into losing match ups if you don’t have the endurance…
Also, I forgot that Oni’s throw is super OD… Two of them and you are in the corner from anywhere on screen. And the oki from a throw is legit also… 5-5…
PS. If you are going to decide to come back with saying that Oni isn’t being punished, remember this, these players all know how to punish Oni’s shit. Like I said before, there is too much stuff to keep up with and if you aren’t looking for a particular thing, Oni can sneek it in. Enough shit get through and you’re mind fucked/blown up… That’s why I say you underestimate Oni’s abilities. He can play solid, sneak in gimmicks and make you look for the wrong shit making his other shit too difficult to react to…
We can debate all day, but I don’t think I can convince you if I haven’t already. If you have a decent reply I’ll just concede, if I don’t think your reply stands, I’ll just let this go…
Hmm idk. That velociraptor sandford first to ten is the example vid I use to argue that gouken needs buffs. Oni is straight up built to abuse him, armor breaking pressure special, invincible 3 frame dp, great kara throw. While goukens only safe answer to pressure without bar is jab spam into cr.lk then jump back. Sanford does have an apartment in velociraptors brain at this point, you can see the melt down and eventual mental forfeit during the later rounds.
It does illustrate your point though, you can get into peoples heads with onis gimmicks if you mix it in with solid play(although i did cringe whenever velociraptor let simple shit like mk slash blocked go unpunished cmon dude that thing is -4, every char in the game can at least throw punish it)
Idk why sanford was going off on his twitter after this f10 saying he doesnt feel anyone in america has mastered gouken yet, and then he was all salt when people were telling him its a good matchup for oni. Oni vs gouken your expected to win, especially if your a higher caliber player then your opponent, brag on twitter when you f-10 someone your supposed to lose to.
The sanford vs wax solid match he played really solid, just those ill advised uppercuts cost him the match, and you’re right he was good about punishing some of sanfords stuff. But I dont feel like hes really familiar with the oni matchup, blocked mk into cross up slash(wax quick rises) and then immediate jump forward air dash tatsu? Theres a reason I showed that exact setup in the oni video, that stuffs like the only setup you can get off cross up slash. I was like omg he better not quick rise…wtf what is this 2012 again? Same thing with the oni jumping at you and air dash backward you never use fierce dp always use light or just normal anti air.
You are right though, Ill concede with the 5-5, I just realized that sanford doesnt win vs the matchups that aren’t in his favor+if the opponent is familiar with oni.
on a personal level I really don’t like how sanford plays oni. He gets away with a lot of stuff here in the states, like imagine if jyobin was the only guy repping ryu and he was beating people and people were using vids of his matches to show that ryu is fine in ultra. When sanford does play foreigners more familiar with oni they picked up on his habits and punished him appropriately. Just look at how sanford did against mago(who developed a pocket oni just after losing to wao at topanga) at evo. Whenever sanford tried anything stupid he got away with it once, max. Mago kept his composure and recognized the same situation and punished sanford.(fireball fadc into stomp or throw block string, air tatsuing out of the corner, and trying the front/back slash mixup on magos wake). Playing against infiltration on that gameshow he got blown up(infiltration also has a pocket oni), and infiltration said sanford has a lot to learn. Wao also lost to infiltration and mago because imo they developed a good enough pocket oni to understand the options and whats going on.
Am I supposed to be getting outfootsied by Sakura players or am I just really bad? I can’t get into my cr.mk range because her st.hk and cr.mk confirm into srk destroy me and I can’t throw fireballs outside that range because she will start punishing it with her focus attack that has a ridiculous range. I just saw Valle get bodied by Alex Myers the other day which was very discouraging. Theres no way this is an even match up.
She’s probably not hit confirming c.mk into srk. She’s just buffering it. 9 times out of 10 you can just walk up on them and block and then punish their srk. Force her to whiff s.hk and punish with sweep. You don’t have a practical way to beat it.
First off, you should know how to deal with focus attacks, as a Ryu player, too many characters have focus attacks that will ruin your day. AA focus from seth, Eyu and Fei pressure focus, Chun safe focus, Hakan, ect… You should have a plan already developed for such a problem causing core element of the game. Not to mention red focus is here now, so there is no excuse to have invested the time in training…
I don’t really understand what you are asking. In that, I’m saying that I don’t understand why you are getting bullied out of your cr.mk range when the boards talk about footsies all day. Predict, confirm and whiff punish. When she tries to stuff you and she whiffs, sweep her and take your free jump in because her wake up is ass. If she hesitates, your cr.mk won’t get stuffed. Her st.hk is focus bait and its safe-ish because of the range where you can focus punish st.hk yet still be out of cr.mk range. If you are performing hadokens at ranges where you are being punished, go lab out the ranges where 1. you are safe 2. she can’t react leading to bait options 3. options she can choose are controlled by you (ie: there is a range where she can’t tatsu over a fast hadoken but she can focus in… you can switch to slow hadoken making the tatsu viable but the focus dash will be punishable… they have to choose in that split second the correct response or block and get the pushback.)
I’m not saying that it is easy, I just feel like you haven’t lab’d up your options.
Good or bad match up, playing Ryu goes beyond playing solid, its about proper risk/reward management. Sure you guess wrong sometimes, but how much life are you willing to gamble to get a certain outcome? What are the odds that you can cross up to escape getting cornered vs the odds you can cross up once you are cornered? If Sakura does X damage when she is in on you, do you want to attempt to keep her out giving her Y attempts to get said damage or do you feel that you should risk getting into Z situation to do X damage to her ending the match that much quicker and also cutting her Y attempts in half. We use x, y, and z because even though character damage output is constant, the people you play and their capabilities are not. If a player isn’t out damaging you, perhaps staying out is less rewarding than going in. If you play a person who has a terrible and predictable mixup, maybe you can use riskier zoning tactics because you know that the only damage you will take is the punish as she will push herself out for free. Maybe the sak player you are playing doesn’t jump, do you have an idea of how you can abuse such a player? Go lab it up, there are ranges for everything…
Lastly, its online, so whiff punishes, AAing with normals and precision spacing is hampered. You may actually be good at the match up in person, but you won’t know till you play a sak main in person…
Decent Sak players won’t pre-buffer at a range where you can force a block, they’ll do it where you get stuffed only. An advanced tactic is to walk into a range where it will barely whiff, then crouch block to make your hurt box large enough to connect, but the good players taught me that so I doubt they are going to fall for it.
As for practical ways to beat her pre-buffer… I haven’t played vs sak in person in a while, but I think you can counter poke with crouch short xx ex hadoken and/or far standing forward kick. Iirc, crouch strong punch was a toss up as a counter poke… Though incredibly punishable, crouch round house beats everything she has iirc… Sorry, its been like, may since I’ve played vs sak offline…
I agree 100% with finkle. Playing a high level ryu is all about getting beat by something and labbing it up to see what you can do. Because in pretty much every case
there is at least something you can do as a ryu. He has those tools. I’ll start it off with 1 hint. Just outside sakura’s cr.mk range yes she can do focus attack against your
fireballs but she can’t do em on reaction. So now instead of stressing about whether or not to throw a fireball, lab up a counter to her focus attack and look for it in matches.
Look at this poor Ryu at the beginning of the video. Is there anything you can do to stop this bullshit aside from mashing dp? Even if you do dp it’ll probably hit on the wrong side and you’ll get punished. The Ryu tried cr. jab and that failed as well.
Theres a few things you can do. Standing jab, standing light kick, crouchteching with cr.hp, jumpback jab. Each one has its own use, with regards to the height of the divekick and spacing.
Why is it that GUY players always do the run stop slide and neutral jump and go for the safe jump.
Correct me if Im wrong but it doesnt work against 3 frames right, only 4 frames+.
So they can get DPed or is it tricker to punish online ?
I don’t know the reason why, but its safe from shoryuken while still being a meaty wake up. Only possible conclusion I can come up with is that the neutral jump fierce has better than 4f recovery on landing…
edit
looks like information here is incorrect.
I would looooove a Bison write up
1st page 7th post.
Please post if you need help with anything on the match up that the Bison match up post doesn’t cover…
edit
there’s also more stuff through out the thread, give it a once over…
There is a basic “test” some players will do to see if the player is thinking like a typical online player (mash and listens to people that says if they jump, uppercut… without thinking technical aspects of why and why they shouldn’t do that.) It’s something I usually like to do when playing someone I’m unfamiliar with.
Basically, if I were Guy doing this… If it’s to “test” if this a typical online player, I do the slide setup and empty jump. No 3-frame DP will anti-air it, but it’s no safe-jump either. I’ll block if they try to mash. It’s taking advantage of trip-guard. Likely along this path you do delay cr.tech or st.tech for safety measures of wake-up throw or cr.tech from the opponent.
Since DWU arrived to USFIV, this test is kinda out of the water somewhat.
Did some tests and it looks like I didn’t notice I was being empty jumped. Not 3f safe jump, thx.