I’m no pro, but what specifically about Ken and Fuerte makes it in their favor? Everyone else in the 6-4 category makes sense to me.
Honestly, I don’t see Viper - Fei as a 5-5 either. Fei just has way too many ways to get out of pressure for free and his mix-ups HURT. Fei’s Ultra 2 probably factors into this matchup as well, pretty much shutting down all air based approaches.
edit. Also every single one of his buttons beats Viper’s. By a lot.
Wins 6-4 vs: Sakura, Dan, Makoto, Hakan, Gen, Gouken, Cody, Claw, Ibuki, Sagat, Seth, Dhalsim, Chun Li, T.Hawk, El Fuerte
Even 5-5 vs: Dee Jay, Guile, Fei, Adon, Rose, Ryu, Ken, Guy, Dudley, Juri
Loses 4-6 vs: Dictator, Cammy, Abel, Boxer, Zangief, Blanka, Rufus, Akuma
Loses 7-3 vs: E.Honda
This is how I view the match list, imo, though there are a few matches I’m contemplating moving around.
Anyways, anyone have solid tips against Dudley. I thought I had a handle on the match up but those meaty’s, frame traps, and corner pressure is ridiculous.
His main pokes, s.HP and F+HP, can be beaten by LP TK even up close, since they hit high and she goes low right away. In fact, all his footsies can be LP TKed if you hit at the right range. He can’t even cross-counter your TKs, and Jet Upper loses to LP TK or goes over it quite easily. Even up close, MGB trades or is beaten by LP TK. A really good tool for Dudley to get in normally is to FA … LP TK again. LP TK for life. If he starts jabbing to beat LP TK spam, MP TK owns his jabs for free. c.MK and all your other normals can get stuffed somewhat easily, unfortunately, but generally c.MK is a good footsie against Dudley.
Non-EX Seismos are silly against him. EX Seismos work well, but natural ones can be hit by EX MGB in a second. He can own a real one for free from near full screen, and lead into a 40% combo if he has Ultra, and then you die when he has you in the corner. But then again, Seismo feint into immediate LP TK stops an EX MGB consistently, so you might be able to get it in his head that EX MGB = bad. Fake all day, fake forever. Seismo traps on his wakeup do work, but be super careful about going for more than one unless it’s an EX Seismo for the second one.
His best and go-to jump-in is the people’s elbow, j.RH. It WILL trade with FP TK, and I could find nothing in her arsenal to flat-out beat it. Be ready to dash after the trade. He can’t cross you up, so if he jumps at you with the intent to hit you, he’s pretty much guaranteed to be in range for FP TK.
Once he’s up close, it’s TOUGH. Worse than Cammy being in tough. You can’t EX Seismo to get out, since his normals will hit you way quicker than you can get it off. EX BK goes over Dudley if he’s crouch jabbing you and you’ll still be in range to be messed up into a combo. Just blocking can be tough, since he has so many frame traps and he can stick to you like glue when he’s in. Eventually in my experience you just have to risk a FP TK or a backdash, or else you might never get him off you.
Move wise only his LP MGB is really safe, and it leaves him within frame trapping distance with his 3 frame jab. Block, backdash, or FP TK if he likes to try to press buttons a lot. Sadly, against Viper, his other MGBs are actually almost safe, and it’s not a huge advantage for you to have blocked one. You can try IABKs or try start a Seismo game, but he has counters. The only MGB that is a guaranteed punish is his blocked EX MGB, which you can reversal Ultra 1, s.MP > c.MP xx MP TK, or even a crouching FFF, if you’re ballsy enough to try a 1 frame timing punish (-8 on block, c.FP comes out in 8 frames).
BKs get beaten out by Cross-Counter, so he’s not at all free to just BK. God help you if he EX CCs you into Ultra 2.
On his wakeup, he’s kind of free. His Jet Upper has no priority without being an EX version, and his Cross-Counter has 3 frame of startup. His wakeup is where the game can be won, even if he has EX. Just fake him out with IABKs, meaty him (overhead beats his non-EX Jet Upper, loses to CC), safe jump his SRK, empty jump to bait out a CC, go to town.
Essentially: keep that son-of-a-bitch out with LP TK and c.MK footsies, be consistent with your FP TK, and try your best not to let him reverse the situation by whiffing something or being too unsafe on his wakeup.
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Basically don’t let him get in. That’s the only time the match is in his favor.
I think the reason why IPW views Fuerte as having the advantage is because of his mix-ups vs Viper, who’s defensive options are lacking, and his RSF damage and stun output perhaps, maybe his mobility making him hard to zone, with Seismos anyway.
Personally, I don’t think Fuerte has the advantage. Viper can hurt Fuerte badly in turn with her damage output, his normals are very poor so you’ll never have to worry about being outpoked by him. His defensive options aren’t that hot either. As long as he doesn’t nail you with RSF, you’re “alright.” Even if you get caught in his mix-up options, you’ll have a good amount of chances to escape since it’s not major damage. And if you have meter for EX Seismo/EX Seismo feint, you can pass through great deal of his mix-up options.
As for Ken, hard ground game to overcome, really hard to shake off once he gets in, his options up close are hard for Viper to deal with.
That’s the same for a lot of her match ups though. Viper doesn’t handle pressure well and we don’t say all of those are 6-4’s.
I think the discussion in the vid thread explains it better than I could: http://shoryuken.com/f254/getting-lauren-bed-video-archive-cviper-170856/index114.html
Uryo himself even said that the Japanese believe El Fuerte beats Viper. Which I can kinda see because Viper is free as fuck on wake up and that’s like the thing Fuerte excels in. Blowing people on once they’re knocked down. It doesn’t matter how many good reversals u have a good Fuerte will grab you up and put u in the mix. Viper’s so so reversals is just screaming for Fuerte to put in the mix. During the ground game he also really takes advantage of all of your special moves being slow which doesn’t help the fact that Fuerte’s gorilla warfare style in and out fighting style will just be forcing u to whiff slow ass special moves all day hoping something catches him.
All u can really do in this match is pray you get good reads because his health and stun is low and he’ll get blown up fast if u just put the right button in the right place. Though that’s easier said than done and the momentum of the matchup is definitely clearly in Fuerte’s favor. Unless u knock Fuerte down yourself there’s no way to really get him to do what you want him to do. Whether that constitutes flat out losing or being even is up to you but generally there is a case for the idea that Fuerte controls the fight. Viper is based a lot on forcing people to do dumb things but she can’t really force Fuerte to do a lot of dumb stuff because he moves at like twice the speed she does and can easily evade on reaction all of her specials.
^
I won’t argue with that then haha, fair enough. To be honest, I clearly haven’t fought any good Fuertes so my opinion of him is skewed. I’ve only played one Fuerte who could RSF. One. And that was in SF4. Apart from that, the rest were all crap.
I’ve fought one of the best Fuerte’s on the east coast (Skisonic) quite a few times over the last 6 months and it goes back and forth for me. I never feel like I’m totally fucked because I know if I land a hit it’s going to hurt and he’s free on wake up afterwards but at the same time I never really get the feeling like I"m in control of the fight. I know he can do some random shit to slip away from me whenever he wants as long as he isn’t on his back and it’s really tough to always be accounting for that while you’re trying to hit him. On top of the fact that if u slip up once u get untech knocked down and instantly put in trouble.
Ah, I see. Not sure if I’ll ever find a Fuerte like Skisonic on PSN LOL, AFAIK, there are only 2-3 Fuertes worth playing against in the UK, and they’re all on Live. 
Maybe someday I’ll have a chance to play them offline and see what the MU’s really like.
Hi so RobotMakoto, I was reading ur response to the Guy thread and it seems the best way to play against him to to turtle. Also I try fienting but whenever I do for some reason, his attacks still hit him, if I try to bait him. So is it better to not rely on fients in this match
What attacks are getting to you while you’re feinting? You should have enough time to dodge anything he throws out unless you’re within sweep range. Regardless, if feinting is getting you hit, you might want to consider TK feinting to end up closer to a down-back position or just not feinting at all, or you might be feinting a lot closer than you should.
You are probably right. I might be fienting a lot closer. the run is what gets me. i think i probably panic when i see the run because I’m not sure what to do since he can slide, and start all the other stuff. I usually do TK fienting, but i definitely think I am too close. i think guy is kinda hard to play against. After reading ur post though i think i have some ideas on what to do. I was thinking baiting the run with a tk fient and then ex siesmo to punish.
Also viper does not seem like an effective turtle. This looks like a hard matchup for her. i was playing a guy earlier and the normal baiting tactics didnt seem to work well for me. when I went defensive he applied alota pressure. Also does tatsu beat burn kicks?
why you shouldnt try anything on wakeup against cammy :nono:
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especially after backthrow and Spiral Drill knockdown
(i hate all vipers 
, sorry for trolling! :xeye: , credits to The-Olympian)
Di,
Guy’s EX Tatsu probably beats BK.
@Diana Prince, was going to post that in here at some point, wonder if we can EX Seismo feint that. Probably not. Oh well, we’ll just block lol. Or backdash away.
making cammy block an ex seismo is already good enough.
Yeah once you get knocked down by fuerte you have to be like psychic or something to get out.
But like you just gotta be patient don’t try to hit him like would against the rest of the cast, just like wait, throwing out a random STK when you’re roughly in the right range can sorta keep him in line for a bit.
Have you tried c.lk? It may beat it or at least not get fucked, I can’t test it because my timing for cannon strike is always way off.
Guy’s Ex Tatsu only has a hits you at the front, so if you can land behind him continuously you’re fine with pressuring him from the air. Just pressure guy, but always respect his Ex Tatsu, if you can force him to do one and you block, he’s screwed.
I haven’t tested it yet but JTK can probably beat his elbow, I mean if it can beat neutral jump rh from juri and chun li well it should beat elbow :/.
If you’re talking about during wake up situation then yeah EX tatsu will beat burn kicks on wake up cuz they are slow as hell. Unless u can get the burn kick to hit him in the back which is what u should be trying to do with burn kicks against reversals any way. Which isn’t a terrible deal since all it means is that u should be using regular safe jumps against him instead of burn kick stuff. His EX tatsu is 6 frame start up so it’s easily safe jumpable. Just safe jump HK him and then go for the burn kick mix ups after if he doesn’t EX tatsu. If he does EX tatsu and u block, free FFF. Guy is pretty free on wake up as long as u stick to safe shit.