Yeah, but it’s still not a hard enough line. It’s easy to “talk” about the game without talking about the game. It’s a completely arbitrary rule that doesn’t actually do anything but lure people like you into a false sense of security.
At least they would be participating in that way. Leagues better than just hanging out not doing shit. I’d much rather have a chance to read somebody then take a gamble just because they arent talking. But I guess it’s too much of a hassle to actually expect somebody to play the game they are participating in.
I mean last game I died night one right? It took about 3-4 day cycles following my death for me to not be in the Top5 most active players according to post count. I mean doesnt that kinda say something? That I posted more in 60 hours than most people did in a little over a week?
Look, with all due respect, it’s like Saitsu said, I’m a POS no matter what rule I implement.
I guarantee you, and believe me when I say I have been watching this trend rise since the first mafia game I ran, 9 games ago: 80% of non-posting wallflowering that makes a huge striking difference in how much information players have to go on is correlated with people not feeling the need to be active in a phase or vote because they don’t have to because at least they voted in the previous phase. If you REALLY don’t believe me, or think I’m full of crap, and just pandering to people, then I can easily provide spreadsheets and post counts that corroborate what I’m saying. I have seen way too many people toe the line on inactivity by skipping voting phases because that does nothing to them overall. Now that won’t be feasible anymore.
But yet I’m not trying to stamp out inactivity enough. So okay, I add this rule: minimum of 10 game-related posts by the end of the 3rd cycle. Now I’m trying to stamp out inactivity too much. So then I just do away with that, and make it on a case-by-case basis. Now I’m being subjective and can just cater to who I like and punish who I don’t like.
If this is the way modern mafia is going on SRK, where no one’s happy that someone wants to GM at all, and all it is complaining about what the GM does in the game, then this will be the last game I GM at SRK.
Dead serious about that. I will move my GMing to 2+2 or Smashboards or just start my own site.
Honestly this is the best way MP could handle it. If people sneak votes without saying shit, they’re suspect. They can’t afford to just skip every other vote at their leisure and not be around.
An arbitrary post count does nothing really. Do you know how easily I could get around that? Hell I’ve already gone an entire game where half my “game-related” posts actually said nothing relevant. It’s very easy to make a post that seems very heavy on content but in reality says absolutely nothing. It’s like a Wrestling Dirtsheet.
Or an Anti-GamerGate blog post.
I didn’t know that Bious had an EpicMafia account.
Alrighty, over my Phoenix Wright PTSD. Put me in so I can laugh at everything again.
Actually I do.
lol guiz we shud play epic mafia one night
Although I feel like that’s never going to happen anymore with the dawn of ToS.
Similarly, game nights have been going extinct for a while.
Also, TGG: like Saitsu said, it just has to be the responsibility of the civilians to deal with wallflowers who haven’t been dq’d because they’ve still been voting. That shit is suspect as hell. It’s a gameplay choice. You can lynch for that.
I see what you’re saying about people still not posting, but as obnoxious as it is that is a style of play. Depending on the matchup and situation you change your strategy. If you’re against Hugo with Juri, for instance, screw going in and just throw fireballs. I see where you’re coming from, but even confirmed civilians don’t make 10 relevant posts a day. Plus then we possibly lose recruits, and to put it in perspective I think 5 of the guys currently playing played in the first few games, tops, so getting new players is the only way that we’re still playing Mafia. And this was the first time the Mafia successfully wallflowered to victory, usually it’s just civs being stupid quiet for little reason, which is less of a problem.
The problem with trying to introduce more rules is that they need to fulfill several conditions while still being considered fair:
Consistent - The rule itself needs to be very clear and work as intended in multiple situations. For example, if a player is AFK for 90% of day phase but is posting a lot in the last hour does that constitute “excessive inactivity” if that was the deciding factor?
Measurable - There needs to be a very clear line between breaking the rule and not. “Too inactive” is up to the GM’s interpretation and isn’t a hard number. “Less than X posts” can be clearly measured because it’s a statistic publicly visible
If you make a rule that says every player has to post game-related things ten times per day, you’re going to do two things, assuming everyone follows it. First, you’re going to increase the post count in the thread drastically and hopefully the post quality. Second, you’re going to introduce an inconsistent factor into the system. Would “Man this game is taking forever, what Day are we on now?” count as a game-related post? Would you, as GM, make it public that post #423 from Player X did not, in fact, count as a game-related post? Would you want to play Mafia after being DQd for only making 9 game-related posts and miscounting on the last one?
My point is that it may be measurable, in a sense, but it’s left solely up to the discretion of the GM and what he feels at any given time. I don’t think that’s a good idea.
We still need to do Skype mafia as well, Forge.
I’m trying to rank up on EpicMafia. Stuff like that makes it hard as crap though.
I just played a couple unranked games on EpicMafia - what a bunch of noobs lol.
Actually, I take it back - it’s just a different breed of non-SRKers.
Numbered for your reading pleasure.
- I had been waiting for someone to make this argument. Follow me on this one if you will, while I practice PW themed posts
If wallflowering is a legitimate style of playing the game, as you put it, then something else must be realized. A gameplay style is acceptable for all players to use at the same time. So in that context, would your opinion of wallflowering be the same if ALL players wallflower? I know what you’re thinking “But somebody has to post!”. In actuality they do not. Everybody could clam up and not say shit. The only reason people post is to convince others they are not mafia while trying to sell people on their theories of who are mafia, which is the meat of the gameplay. Furthermore, the more players that wallflower, the higher your chances of survival for doing it with them. There would be a larger pool of people not talking therefore making the grab bag of players for a lynch all the more risky. At this point, with nobody posting, what would really be the point of playing Mafia then? How is that captivating and involved gameplay? I admit a roster of 20-something people clamming up Dnyce style is very unlikely, but with no rules in place to push against, it certainly is not an impossibility and stands to happen should people so desire that style of “playing”. Some kind of rule needs to be in place to hold players to a certain level of quality. If you are kosher with 3 people wallflowering, but have an issue with the entire roster wallflowering, then like it or not you agree with me. Where is the line drawn? And should there not be something in place for that?
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If the player decides to make all their posts in the last hour, then so be it. It is their decision and when you boil it down they still made their post requirement. Though it does add a little bit more meta. Are they posting at the last minute because they are trying to hide something and are hoping it wont be realized until after lynch votes have been made? Are they stalling? I’m missing possibilites here but there are no doubt things that can be derived from people waiting until the last minute to make their posts. Or maybe they just have a legitimate time constraint and cant really post until right then. Who knows? But IMO it is a better alternative than complete silence
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It seems this was already addressed and was paid attention to by MP’s old #10 rule. 10 posts, and dont miss 2 votes the whole game. I personally feel like the post count was a little too overbearing and should’ve been a 5 post requirement per day cycle since it needs to be non-fluff. As for the “non-fluff” aspect, I explained this earlier but I feel like it shouldve been pretty loose to ease up on the players while still having an enforcing factor. Just post about the game in some way or another. Even if you aren’t actually saying anything in the post as Saitsu pointed out, at least you’re playing that way. It also doesnt take you guys long to pick up on somebody throwing out shitty ideas. If I remember correctly Pimp Willy was lynched last game because all of his reads were wrong outside of protecting the walls. The idea is not to make you play “better”, the idea is just to get people to play at all.
Before people get too defensive, keep in mind that I am not a GM. I do not assign rules. This is just simply how I feel and view the matter. My opinion alone. Nothing I say is going to be carved in stone.
Ok screw it, I’m in!
http://doulifee.com//Storage/aceatt/GyakutenSaiban1/ani-gant-tie.gif
I’ll just have to drink twice as much coffee than I usually do and I should manage to keep up despite school. Pass me some of the good stuff @GodotsRevenge.
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Nested the quote to make scrolling easier for people who don’t want to see all the quote. Will quote what I respond to below.
If by acceptable you mean possible, then yes. It’s not always a good idea however. Why would roleless civ A say nothing during Lynch or Lose, for instance? Sure a grappler can try to time out a zoning character, but given context like health difference and time remaining it might quickly become a poor idea. If all players wallflowered then I would be annoyed, but it doesn’t detract from it being a tactic, if used as such. It doesn’t matter whether I like it or not. Saying something isn’t impossible doesn’t mean it’s ever going to happen. Theoretically I could punch my professor, steal his wallet, and run out of the classroom. After all, nothing’s literally stopping me from taking that action. However the post-consequences of jail and whatnot mean I don’t do that. Same with wallflowering, if someone consistently wallflowers to an extreme level then they’re not going to be allowed in games, roster and GM permitting. To answer your question, I don’t think we should make a rule for it until that situation of mass wallflowering occurs.
That statement wasn’t addressed to the possibility of having to post X times a day, it was meant to present a situation in which the GM has to make a call. Ideally I don’t believe the GM should have any say in the game once it gets going, there should be rules that clarify any realistic scenario to come up and the GM is there to run the game and fix any unique issues. That point was about what constitutes as “game related” posts. Does it only count talking about the game in general, or would you have to discuss things like roles or votes?
The problem with that is the GM has to decide what “non-fluff” is. It’s a subjective opinion. As I mentioned above, I don’t believe the GM’s job is to make decisions, except in extreme cases, he’s only there to enforce previously made decisions without interpretation, and run the game. What happens when Player X gets DQd for not posting enough non-fluff but Player Y doesn’t if they’re very similar? Also there’s the possibility of subconscious decisions by the GM interfering with the game in this manner i.e. counting a subtle/coded statement as non-fluff or not DQing someone with a role who’s talking about it in a subtle/coded manner.
I appreciate that you’re being level-headed and logical though, makes it possible to have an actual discussion with someone on the Internet rather than an argument.
Also, you are putting more work and stress on the GM with post counts. Is a GM required to manually count posts from all players each phase, in addition to tallying up votes, answering stupid questions for the #100th time, handling the writeup, and all the other stuff that always comes up?
How do you manage the post counts?
With my third party, external program? So now you’re relying on my program, that I wrote, for each game run by each GM? And requiring features in it that doesn’t currently exist (breaking down posts per day)? And on top of that, using my tool that must be maintained by me, to enforce a rule I don’t agree with in the first place?
You should go back and read the first mafia games, where the entire thread is like 6 pages long. Not everybody has the time/desire for 20 pages of posts per day phase. Some people post all the time and have very little content. Some people post very little but have amazing content. Its stylistic. I make a ton of posts, but many of them are just sarcastic comments/jokes. Should I be dqd for cluttering the game?
Players always have the chance to sort things out with a lynch. And with the UC. Seriously, try not losing your UC night 2 and see how different the game goes.
All in all, taking advice on a game from somebody that has only ever played 1 is hilarious anyway, you have no idea how a standard game plays out and your entire experience is based on one where the mafia took out pretty much all our power roles right off the bat, leading them to have a huge advantage they rode to the win.
Thing is MP made it a rule initially. So clearly he was accepting of the responsibility of counting posts one way or another before he rescinded the order. How the posts are counted is not my problem. Write the names down and put a tally for every post you see of them. Games also do not go 20 pages per phase. Dont exaggerate like that.
Your point about pages per game is moot. I actually went and looked. Mafia 1 wrapped up in 6 pages. Mafia 2 wrapped up in 8 with a 9th page for post game stuff. Now I havent clicked on ALL of them, but every subsequent mafia game that I viewed is in excess of 25 pages. I’m not exactly sure what your point is with that.
Also maybe you could enlighten me as to how Mafia usually plays out yeah? Because since that was my first game and all, my experience with it counts for absolutely nothing apparently.
The uc is a good tool agaisnt wallflowers, because they can investigate those who aren’t talking and find out if they’re dirty. Not talking actually makes you a UC target. Therefore, being mafia and not talking is a good way to get found out.
Apparently its 50 posts per page. At 30 people with a minimum of 10 posts per phase, thats 300 posts, and a minimum of 6 pages. Not counting people who makes 20-30 posts per phase. So yeah 20 is an exaggeration, that would be 1000 posts. Likely you’re looking at 10 pages or so for day 1. Point is, you’re super inflating the game posts, that super increases the workload somebody had to do to keep up with the thread. You can’t force quality.
Also, MP asked me to use my tool so he could count posts, and I told him I’d have to think about it because it would take work on my part to support the rule I don’t really agree with. Unless you’ve actually run a game, you have no idea the amount of work and stress it causes. Its a valid concern that will make people less likely to want to run a game.
And yes, your experience counts for almost dick when it comes to changing the game balance. You’re like the guy who plays SF4 for the first time, eats a wake up ultra, and demands they be nerfed because they’re too OP. Play a few sessions before you comment on balance.
Also, for reference, these were the end of day 1 post counts for the last game:
Spoiler
XthAtGAm3RGuYX Posts: 80
Skizzz Posts: 45
RadicalFuzz Posts: 44
Pimp Willy Posts: 36
DukeC Posts: 30
jasonC Posts: 28
Blindknagg Posts: 24
The Chief Posts: 22
ForgeDigger Posts: 21
AlphaCommando Posts: 18
Bious Posts: 18
Sumazndude Posts: 16
Combo_Knight Posts: 16
Augustus Posts: 15
DarkGeneral Posts: 14
Exodus. Posts: 11
Synonym Posts: 11
orochizoolander Posts: 10
LordWilliam1234 Posts: 6
Cyntalan Posts: 6
D’Nyc3 Posts: 5
GodotsRevenge Posts: 5
Icege Posts: 3
The Co-Jones Posts: 2
RECESSIONTIME Posts: 1
7/25 people fell under 10 posts in the first day phase