SRK Lounge: More like turned on by Lesbian Seagulls

DANZAN · August 21, 2016, 7:57pm

^ This made me lol.

I am still on team crotchpuncha though, and i do not see why anyone would have a problem with him. He is chill as feck.
You need to take 1 or 2 steps back, sir.

Pertho · August 21, 2016, 8:15pm

The funniest thing about mIRC’s posts on zoning is that nobody really addresses his thesis and whether or not its valid. This isn’t an opinion on it, more like people don’t understand it.

mIRC looks at a game zoning this way: Does the game have a character whose active gameplan is to maintain ranges outside of upclose? This means that even if the opponent was cornered and knocked down, the player would keep that distance since it is the winning strategy.

This isn’t the case at all in SF5. The game is virtually played at a certain range. In some hilarious turn of events, fireballs are better at that upclose range. You aren’t really pushing people back with them so much as standing just outside their longest poke and shooting from there, as opposed to setting up a gauntlet from far away. Even Dhalsim isn’t really trying to keep you away; he is just trying to get in at his on convenience and then get out again. Even FANG is better when doing things up close. Maybe Birdie but I’m pretty sure even that dude would be better off ignoring certain moves and just coming in too.

Guilty Gear is a bit weird in that mIRC is half right and half wrong. You have to respect a lot of ranges from certain characters. On the other hand, you do have Millia who basically goes even with the cast because she is more or less getting in for free every round. A whole lot of the cast does go in for the pressure and will take the mix up if given to them rather than trying to back away and keep zoning you out. A lot of characters do end up working a bit mid screen to close the gap and then keep pressuring you with set ups and mix ups. They all have different ways to work around the mid screen battle and to pressure you, and a lot of ways to defend against the stuff but fights end up at the same range for a lot of the cast and not many are giving you the nope constantly from far away.

In some ways this is why Venon becomes a point of contention. He has the tools to happily sit back and just keep chucking projectiles but he ultimately wants to set up safe pressure with balls in the corner. He isn’t necessarily forcing himself in so much as forcing your opponent back and then getting going for the mix ups.

AXL on the other hand will take those ranges and sit his ass there; at least a lot more than Venom will. Haven’t watched AXL footage since the game got a console release so I’m not sure whether or not he’d make that decision. Personally I rather just maintain optimal distances since that suits my gameplay style better.

That’s the long and the short of how mIRC is looking at things. Taking some time to consider things would’ve helped immensely. So would continuing this conversation on the XRD thread over at FGD.

rukawa_kaede · August 21, 2016, 8:18pm

Wtf I’m reading,

mIRC · August 21, 2016, 8:26pm

I’m surprised you can read too.

ThePurpleBunny · August 21, 2016, 8:26pm

Pertho is now trying to set you guys up by getting you to post outside of GD. What mod would do this to the people he swore to protect?

drunkards_walk · August 21, 2016, 8:30pm

The problem is, you probably only know that because you’ve been witness to his contentious diatribes against game X and game Y for 8 years. I’ve not seen him define what a zoner is, only say a certain game doesn’t have a zoner (or more often, that a certain game sucks).

With that definition in mind, I still don’t think it would be valid to say that GG doesn’t have a zoner, but I do agree that Venom is probably not the best example of one (although I stand by the statement that he can get a really strong zone going under the right conditions). I’ll let the people decide for themselves with this video from this year’s Evo:

Negaduck · August 21, 2016, 8:31pm

Black because your on SRK.

BullDancer · August 21, 2016, 8:31pm

https://youtu.be/Y0dhWzbUnqg

Another great video despite Eddie’s ability to put people in the corner and keep them there was ultra busted. I want to play Guilty Gear again. There is just a lacking scene for it :sad:

Raz0r · August 21, 2016, 8:35pm

I used to play a lot of Venom before SIGN and yeah, he’s not a zoner. He CAN zone, but why would he when he can oki the living shit out of you on knockdown? I used to think he was too and played him that way, setting up balls to keep the opponent out. Then one day someone laughed at me and told me “No, this is how you should play Venom.” That was the end of me thinking he was a traditional zoner.

NickRocks · August 21, 2016, 8:47pm

Venoms cool

drunkards_walk · August 21, 2016, 9:02pm

@mIRC be honest here, does that video I posted meet your criterion for zoning? I’m honestly curious

Manx · August 21, 2016, 9:19pm

LOL I thought this whole time you were talking about Marvel Venom. I was like uh… red Venom, maybe.

:tup:

AYO · August 21, 2016, 9:24pm

Me too until they clarified. I was like Venom can’t zone for shit in Marvel lol.

Weeaboo · August 21, 2016, 9:26pm

Evolution by Ayumi Hamasaki

Manx · August 21, 2016, 9:32pm

Wrong! (you’re always supposed to give the wrong answer).

It’s Heroic by Hikaru Utada.

:tup:

Weeaboo · August 21, 2016, 9:37pm

OK.

rukawa_kaede · August 21, 2016, 9:38pm

It doesn’t matter which limb you use for crouching low attack it serves the same purpose can be a hand, a sword, a stick. Whoever says otherwise is an idiot.

DevilJin_01 · August 21, 2016, 9:54pm

Pertho:

The funniest thing about mIRC’s posts on zoning is that nobody really addresses his thesis and whether or not its valid. This isn’t an opinion on it, more like people don’t understand it.

mIRC looks at a game zoning this way: Does the game have a character whose active gameplan is to maintain ranges outside of upclose? This means that even if the opponent was cornered and knocked down, the player would keep that distance since it is the winning strategy.

This isn’t the case at all in SF5. The game is virtually played at a certain range. In some hilarious turn of events, fireballs are better at that upclose range. You aren’t really pushing people back with them so much as standing just outside their longest poke and shooting from there, as opposed to setting up a gauntlet from far away. Even Dhalsim isn’t really trying to keep you away; he is just trying to get in at his on convenience and then get out again. Even FANG is better when doing things up close. Maybe Birdie but I’m pretty sure even that dude would be better off ignoring certain moves and just coming in too.

Guilty Gear is a bit weird in that mIRC is half right and half wrong. You have to respect a lot of ranges from certain characters. On the other hand, you do have Millia who basically goes even with the cast because she is more or less getting in for free every round. A whole lot of the cast does go in for the pressure and will take the mix up if given to them rather than trying to back away and keep zoning you out. A lot of characters do end up working a bit mid screen to close the gap and then keep pressuring you with set ups and mix ups. They all have different ways to work around the mid screen battle and to pressure you, and a lot of ways to defend against the stuff but fights end up at the same range for a lot of the cast and not many are giving you the nope constantly from far away.

In some ways this is why Venon becomes a point of contention. He has the tools to happily sit back and just keep chucking projectiles but he ultimately wants to set up safe pressure with balls in the corner. He isn’t necessarily forcing himself in so much as forcing your opponent back and then getting going for the mix ups.

AXL on the other hand will take those ranges and sit his ass there; at least a lot more than Venom will. Haven’t watched AXL footage since the game got a console release so I’m not sure whether or not he’d make that decision. Personally I rather just maintain optimal distances since that suits my gameplay style better.

That’s the long and the short of how mIRC is looking at things. Taking some time to consider things would’ve helped immensely. So would continuing this conversation on the XRD thread over at FGD.

Dhalsim has anime tools now so it’s obvious they weren’t trying to get you to long term zone with him. Fang has more long term zoning tools than him.

The other thing is that there’s so many even older SF games where that long ranged gauntlet isn’t there or isn’t optimal. Alpha 2, Alpha 3, CVS2, 3rd Strike…like you have a real small list of TRUE SF GAMES with true SF zoning. The list where you have that zoning and it’s optimal or doesn’t get completely dicked by some meter mechanic or character that disregards fireballs is even smaller. “I had a great time zoning in ST until ST Claw said stop”. Now you have to play his game and jump around and hit j.HK and DP instead of throw many fireballs anymore.

SFIV worked like that too. Zoning was alright, but there was a slew of characters to be picked that could completely disrespect it regardless.

In the end zoning characters are like grappler characters where even if the game has good zoning, you’re going to get dicked by stronger characters in the meta that have relatively decent zoning and better offensive/mid ranged options or just purely focus on flat out better offensive/mid ranged options. Pure zoning as your strategy in the meta always takes a back seat to stronger stuff regardless.

Watch when KOF XIV launches. You’re going to have characters that can zone, but they are going to be constantly walking on eggshells vs stronger offensive characters that have one meter fuck projectile options. That and just generally have better odds getting in with all of the movement options.