whats best, having a bigger jumping (chun li) arc or a shorter one (balrog).
for a bigger jumping its easier to prepare an AA or reposition yourself to take advantage when the oher player lands. A shorter jumping arc has trouble with slow moving projectiles, but it easier and faster to get on top on ur opponant after a know down.
He is the same as CE Ryu, with the addition of air tatsu.
I also believe Dee Jay is very good by design.
As for Ryu vs Ken, I disagree. Ryu has lost his good tatsus from CE/HF, but he got that hadouken that nullifies a good part of the OG ground game. It is a get-out-of-jail card, the way they made it good after it becomes active. It is not a free one because you can get punished bad if they predict or just guess right, but it’s a chance. But I often want to play footsies against other Ryus and it’s hard because they just come with that and if you do not predict it, you get knocked down or pushed back again. “Sorry, I don’t wanna dance.” Ryu has no real normal answer to Chun’s kicks? Red hadouken. Dee Jay is throwing projectiles or just missed an attack from a distance? Hadouken. The list goes on. I believe Ryu’s better hadoukens help him both near and far from Ken, making it fair or advantageous to Ryu without supers. As for the comparison between supers, indeed Ken’s is way worse, no questions asked.
I also don’t quite agree with Cloth about that. I’d say Ryu can do something out of any range.
Sometimes it works that way, but it is not the rule. First, supers are actually a slippery slope problem: the one who is attacking more gets it first, and gets to apply even more pressure on the enemy. As for balance, it can also be Rog, who already dominates a number of characters, and to make matters worse, gets a 50-45% high priority safe damage option. Vega and Dhalsim also dominate many characters and eventually get a super, but theirs are not as menacing as Rog’s.
IMO supers should deliver two times the damage of the move its based off of i.e. guiles super should do twice the damage of a flash kick, ryu’s super should do the damage of two hodokens, etc… and for those low damage attacks all supers should do roughly the same ammount of damage +/- 2.5% obviously some things would need to be worked out such as the supers of gief and hawk, if they land those they deserve to do big damage and what about akumas super, and since the super is now doing less damage should it hit for about 5 hits or only two?
i think its ridiculous how some characters can combo moves into their super and/or out of it such as dee jay with his up kicks into super, chun li up kicks after super, bison jump punches after super etc…
The best designed SF2 character is Guile in my honest opinion. The guy has had to be nerfed in every SF2 game since World Warrior and he’s still a mid to top tier character when played right.
I’m speaking overall here and not just about Super characters where Ryu would clearly get my vote.
I should have clarified. In my mind, I only really consider HF and ST/HDR to be apart of this discussion. HF being the pinnacle of CPS1 SF2 and ST/HDR being the pinnacle of CPS2 SF2. In HF, Ryu had pretty much everything he needed to beat the shit out of the entire cast when played at the top most level. In ST, there are quite a few different variables, including the entire cast shakeup and rebalance.
I guess if I had to pick one character for ST/HDR it would be Vega. He moves so fucking fast (jumping, walking, walldive) that most characters can’t get out of his vicious walldive antics when played right.
That was kind of my point, how do you rank the best one?
Id give that prize to Fei Long because most of matchups are even if not in his advantage and he has a fighting chance in all of them especially if he can get close… or im too much of a fanboy:lovin:
Fei long has the best style by design.
I think DeeJay is the best designed character, no bias.
<RANT>
Guile has been nerfed too much, poor guy
</RANT>
Well attempting an unbiased opinion, I think DeeJay is the best in the game next to Boxer though anybody who is the best in a game isnt really well designed. High Priority god hand that beats everything out…, all of his matchups in his advantage or higher(in my opinion though), one of the fastest projectiles in the game, excellent and high priority normals, best crossup in the game next to Zangief’s, and a decent anti air game, anti air that can be juggle into super… is there anything this guy doesnt have?
Id have to say Ryu simply because he has the most balanced moveset(although you could say that the super shook that shit up quite a bit), and he does well in all of his matches but not TOO well(think boxer in Vanilla ST).
I would probably say Boxer was. I noticed the other day that his headbutt grab does a lot more damage than anyone else’s throws or grab moves, which immediately gives him an advantage in throw situations.
Turn punch is insane and does like 60% damage when fully charged. If you are fortunate enough to land this, it gives you a huge health advantage and can change the way the other player plays (eg becomes more conservative).
Super has a lot better range than most and damage is about average.
Jumping fierce and the buffalo headbutts are flexible enough to work around most fireball traps. The different strengths of headbutt allow you to trick players who like to walk up and sweep as well as close up ground rather than knocking them down and going for a cheeky headbutt grab.
Fast attacks and good range. If you eat a jab, chances are you may eat another 2 and a super or something.
Has some tricky moves that allow him to get up close for a headbutt grab, for example whiffing the running uppercut on blocking opponents. Super also seems to leave him pretty close, as I usually piledrive supering Boxers.
I’d also take a guess at Dictator. “Boss” characters are usually boss characters for a reason, because they are designed to be better than the usual characters.
Ahh, but you have to give up your kicks or punches while charging, which is a pretty big deal for what is essentially a gamble punch. Landing a FINAL is extremely gratifying, but I can’t remember the last time I saw one connect in tournament footage.
/thread
I have to disagree with this, as a dictator mainer. Dic is upper mid tier but no better. He can rush down relentlessly and is very mobile, but he’s shaky in tight, defensive situations, and it’s an “auto-win” for some characters (hawk, fei) if they get him in the corner. He can also be counterpicked the fuck out of if you know he’s coming up. He was designed to be very powerful on the attack, but to have big chinks in his armour defensively if you got him on the back foot.
His biggest problem keeping him from being god-tier is his lack of a solid reversal. It’s just too big of a problem to overcome against the most skilled opponents and it keeps even the best players from winning big with him against other serious opponents. That’s why you hardly ever see him doing well in top 8’s of big tournaments. I love using dic, but his defensive shortcomings can be exploited too easily if you know how. Command tick throws slaughter him, and even ordinary ticks give him a lot less options than other characters. Aside from his new invincible HDR Devil’s reverse, which is a pretty worthless reversal in all but the simplest situations, he has to rely on his super and having meter for a reliable reversal, which is a giant pain in the ass.
Akuma is the best character by design, obviously (because he was designed to be a broken cheating pain in the ass), but aside from him i’d say the best character is possibly a fast rushdown boxer a la afrolegends, maybe a well played dhalsim with good use of spacing and normals, or possibly a top ryu like Daigo or DG/V.
Oh that can’t be right: Dictator has like TODs and can kill you with one proper crossover. If he had a “real” reversal he’d be GOD TIER. His DR is a GREAT reversal, you just aren’t using it right man.
‘Sarcasm off’
Those are some of the common counter-arguments, but I agree with you completely Mackdaddi. His lack of reversal is just stupid at this juncture, but I do love to hear the outcry against such a ‘fundamental’ change. He can never truly be top tier and like you said is really edged out of even A tier, because of this flaw. Arguing against him having a reversal is about as crazy as capcom giving damn near everyone a antiair a-la Ryu and Guile. I mean Vega should be theoretically considered a all out agressive char, but they gave him a flipkick. Even balrog received a bad ass headbutt and he is ANYTHING but a defensive char. Rog is the epitome of no defense/rushdown, but his butt gives him a great defense against many a move (I think it’s intended use was to go through fireballs, but history has proven it works much better than that).
I’d wager that they never gave Dictator a reversal because he was always on the downgrade list from being a beast in champ and his upgrades from that era and forward dwindle. I don’t think they thought about it honestly, but 15 + years later and, again, almost everyone has a reversal and most of them are UP attacks. The whole “he’s all offense”, if true, is a failed experiment. He can be much more, but doesn’t need to be uber cheese lockdown. He just needs something that has become basically ESSENTIAL to high level play in SF2: Damaging Reversal (yeah Sim can just port away)
It wouldn’t be game ruining for him to have one and thinking so is really self-dillusion. If anything he’d be in the top, but not beyond anyone at the top because his game plan revolves around exploiting certain situations, more-so than the other top tiers, as they are just solid at doing what they do. I mean honestly they could make almost every char A tier or higher, but that is a discussion for the other thread… kinda like discussing Dic’s flaws lol.
Best by design? Well after they ditched how his moves worked in Super, yeah it’d be Boxer. He was made to win. It can not be denied. I think that in 94 they sat around and decided if there was going to be a good candidate for a char to be truly american and give Ryu (karate) a run for his money I think they (Capcom) decided Balrog (boxing). IMO he’s Ryu’s counterpart in too many ways to go un-noticed and the BIG leap from ‘how’ Super Balrog works into ‘how’ ST Rog works reemphasizes my theory on ‘why’ they changed him. Was Super Balrog broke? Was he so bad they needed to change turnpunch/give low dash/add butt and whatever else they did to make him such a beast? I love Boxer, but come on he is outlandish to say the least.
Ohh yeah I agree Deejay has mass style. I love it even when he cries “noooo” on the loss.
I have to be careful in suggesting that dictator should have got a reversal, because like you said, everybody will jump on you for it, but Devil’s reverse IS a worthless reversal, i DO know how to use it, and he wouldn’t be god tier if a reversal was implemented carefully for him. What’s more, like you said they’ve taken characters like boxer and redesigned them from the ground up giving them a lethal rushdown style and excellent normals but a solid reversal for defence, why can’t they do the same for dic? I think you’re right about him perpetually being on the nerf list. He suffered the same fate as guile. He was too good in the early versions so they were always afraid of making him better.
Something that was as useful as a buffalo headbutt, and happened as quickly, but that still was punishable if you baited it properly would be perfect for him. I feel like a short invulnerable attacking reversal with a stun period at the end of it would have been just right. LIke the attacking part of the devil’s reverse, the last bit, but low to the ground, and without the HUGE sitting duck portion of it. For anybody who remembers what his devil’s reverse was like in Super SF2, before they changed it for ST, i’m thinking along those lines, maybe activated by hitting all 3 punch buttons instead of just one or something?
I like what sirlin did with him in HDR, and i love the idea of giving him somewhat of a reversal without giving him a get out of jail free card, i just think he could have gone a little further with it to make it more flexible without making him too powerful.
The new DR has only a couple of frames of full invincibility, and a few more where the lower section of dics body is invulnerable, and it also doesn’t travel through airborne opponents, which means it’s really only good for escaping grounded attacks, and has to be used very late with perfect reversal timing to be effective. Problem is, it’s so slow and cumbersome in it’s start up that when you activate it late, even if you escape the first attack you end up hanging in the air like a sitting duck and half the time the opponent can just smack you with whatever their follow up move was going to be if the first one hit. There’s a good 3/4 of a second before you can actually do the second part of the move, the actual punch, and hit with it if you choose to use it, so you better hope that your opponent is asleep even if you do get the reversal timing to come off, because you can usually be swatted out of the air easily. It was put in place to help dic escape corner fireball lockdowns, and it works well for that, but that’s the least of his problems.
If the DR was given a little more invincibility, or was faster to attack with and not such a sitting duck type, telegraphed move it would be perfect. Not too powerful, not a free escape every time, but actually useful against stuff other than wakeup fireballs and ticks. I don’t agree with giving him a teleport, because that WOULD just be overpowered and a free escape, but i would love to see him have some psycho uppercut or psycho flip type thing that was a solid reversal, worked something like a rog headbutt, and had a long startup time so it could be easily safe jumped and baited by skilled opponents. It would give him options, but still not a no-brainer, ken wakeup dragon punch type reversal every time he was downed.
It’s all academic though, i think we’ve seen the last iteration of SF2 we’ll ever see, so i can’t imagine any more refinements will be made via patch or otherwise. Guess we’ll just have to live with him as he is.
I personally wouldn’t mind if Dictator got a reversal As has been mentioned before, Boxer is evidently a lot better than Dictator, and would probably still be better than him if Dictator had a decent reversal.
Remember, that a reversal is a defensive move, so it would make no difference to his attacking prowess, it would just give him half a chance of getting out of traps.
If for some reason they wanted to retain the current tier list balance or something, they could probably give him a reversal, but at the expense of his ToD. Maybe make it dizzy only 33% of the time, or require one more hit to consistently dizzy? Would a Dictator player be happy with that trade off?
I like Dictator, but no reversal is the one thing that has stopped me using him. I just don’t want to get locked down in a corner and fucked up.
Would an upwards psycho crusher look too stupid?
I like the idea of implementing some of those changes to the DR and if you did land a successful DR, on the upswing, where would that put you relative to the enemy character while they are getting up? Would you have enough time to then come down with the hand and catch them in a crossover? I think if you landed a DR (going up) and the other guy got hit, you should not be able to get into a position to crossover with it on the way down… that would be too much imo. If the time that elapsed between the uphit and when dictator actually lands on the ground would be about even or at a disadvantage to Dic… meaning your opponent is getting to his feet as you are landing on yours, then it would be on the way towards balanced. I think it would be hard to program, as you stay in the air for diff time periods with various buttons and you could be also hitting the opponent at different times during their jump and be able to swing back down for another hit. Maybe if you just land on the other side, after a successful DR (uphit) so that it resets the whole encounter. Maybe this whole thing would be too technical to do with the DR, but it would be an idea looking into for a future iteriation of SF2 (and I don’t think they are done making them and ever will be honestly).
Does that sound right??
I can’t speak for every dictator player, but i think i would be happier with that. Balancing off the amount of trouble i get into because i don’t have a reliable reversal with how important TOD’s are to my game i would have to say i think that would make dictator a viable but not overpowered character. Nerf his brutal offence but give him a little more defence so that he can stay in the game. I love TODing people, it’s great fun, but TOD’s are no use if you 're dead or locked down in a throw loop in the corner.
I think just a short animation that’s similar to the part of the current devil’s reverse where the punch comes out would be perfect. A short upwards flip with some invincibility and a punch at the top of it, that goes about the same height and lasts the same length of time as rog’s headbutt, and has a similar long, punishable stun period when you land. It shouldn’t hit on the way down, that would be too safe for bison, to be able to put people in blockstun while landing. If it missed on the way up he should be a sitting duck for the rest of it.
In essence, give him rog’s headbutt, working exactly the same, but make up some bullshit psycho power name for it and give it the usual purple effect or whatever.I don’t care, as long as he could hit fuckers on wakeup i’d be happy if he turned into boxer and headbutted them.
I would make it knock down, but land on the same side as the opponent, right in front of them so you wouldn’t have time or the correct spacing to score a crossup jump off of it, that would be too powerful, like you said. I would make it useful as an escape but still have a litle bit of risk associated with it if it was baited, ie you had to commit to the risk of doing it, like a dragon punch or whatever, and if you whiffed or were safe jumped or whatever you were in danger of a sweep/knockdown/combo.
Also it would have to be a charge move, obviously. An instant dragon punch reversal for dic would be too good in ST/HDR.
Maybe charge :db:, :uf: + PPP?