And the reason for that is because the competitive SF players were still basically playing the same game as the casual SF players.
The competitive Melee players were playing a game that was completely different from the game casual Melee players were playing.
If Melee players played SF2WW back in the day, competitive SF2 at the time would have banned throws, banned handcuffs, and probably eventually banned Guile in general, and then top players would all be playing Chun or Sim only.
Also someone would have found a way to hack the arcade version to remove random damage and dizzies.
I have to say, people’s opinions on this series have actually come a long way around these parts. They’re getting more sophisticated, but they’re not quite there yet.
I’ll give it another two years or so, before people start to recognize that game designer intentionality is irrelevant to competitiveness, which is a player community construct.
True but you cannot complain when the designer puts in mechanics to make the games less competitive. His decision to not make something he loves stressful so he can enjoy it…
Look spanky, if you can’t ignore shit by now you are absolutely no better then the people you’re reprimanding.
Ignore shit and just join the discussion otherwise.
While I disagree with Shiki’s delivery on the matter, I do agree with him (as I’ve been talking about already) that I do not believe Sakurai made Melee with the intention to appeal to the hardcore. This is why I question people who mention that it appeals to ‘both groups’, and then bring up the matter that it wasn’t even his doing, nor most anyone else.
I suppose I can understand where he’s coming from. A little misguided imo, but I think he just wants to stress a “laid back” party aspect to this game, which it certainly accomplishes. I do however, think that while he doesn’t have to consider balance, he should realize that characters should have tools and strengths that adhere to their intended playstyles.
Take Falcon for instance, an in-your-face rush down character. With the shit priorities on his moves, and slow start-up of smashes or any other power attacks, he’s never threatening. They even nerfed his off-stage game by slowing his air mobility, just making him a bland and weak character overall. There is no perspective that a game designer could take favors these decisions unless you don’t give a shit.
damn I can still remember when Brawl first came out “OMG I CAN’T WAVEDASH!!!” it was like Melee players lost their hearts that day lol. Well the most they could do is scrap the party style gameplay of the Smash series and turn it into a traditional fighter like SF and see how it goes from there,since this generation of gaming is mostly about change. And I also agree that not every fighter cranked out just absolutely no questions asked HAS to be competitive.
I never get the feeling playing Smash that Sakurai really thought about move priorities and character viability and stuff like that. He was just trying to make a fun game that anybody could play, and that seems pretty clear from these interviews.
I don’t think it’s fair to crucify him for wanting to keep that element alive in his series…
I agree that Smash was never supposed to be competitive. Sakurai clearly doesn’t like the way “competitive players” play the game. that’s why he added in tripping.
I do agree that he should take out turning Items and Stages off. it would be a much better game. because Smash is supposed to be a party game. Melee was accidently competitive.
I always liked 64 the best because in principle, almost every character is OP in that game. You can just pick up anyone you like and they rape shit if you play your cards right.
The only reason I like playing as falcon in brawl is because of the character, nothing about his moves or gameplay feel gratifying in any sense. If you have to work 10x as hard to muster the same results as some d-smash spamming lunatic, then the game stops being fun.
What I’m trying to say is, if you don’t want to concern yourself with balance, then make every character powerful, and they will be naturally fun to play. Sakurai not only dumbed the game down, but he arbitrarily nerfed characters that would have been more enjoyable to use if he just left them alone. For that, eat a dick Sakurai.
that is because he wasnt making the game for the “hardcores” he was doing the game for gamers or i should say, nintendrons, he didnt knew that there are hardcores among the nintendrons, hardcores are just casuals that take them too serious for their own good
as long there are people interested on play it “competitively” anything can be played that way, mario party, dbzbt3, the naruto games, only cuz we dont see them as tournament worthy, other people do
Speaking as a guy who liked playing Falcon in every version of Smash, I can get where you’re coming from. But at the same time, like, I don’t think he was thinking about balance, or anything really. From the interview, I don’t get the feeling that he takes the game that seriously as a fighting game, so he kinda molds it without thinking about how viable a character is and stuff like that.
Hey, as good a time as any to ask this: I remember an episode of MTV’s True Life that was about Pro Gamers, and one of the guys they interviewed was a Melee player. Anyone know who I’m talking about? Whatever happened to that dude? Hard to judge the intensity of the scene per se. As this was back around 06 or so. But I do remember the Melee players having a blase’ interest in the game at tourneys.
Look, wanky, again, if you consider what you just quoted, you have your rebuttal.
You said it yourself: SF2 was not made to be “strictly” competitive. It was a commodity, like any other corporate product. By and large, most games - “games” not just as in “video games”, but in the broadest sense - aren’t created with tournament play in mind. It takes a pool of players with a competitive disposition to make anything competitive. Video game developers catering to tournament crowds is a fairly recent phenomenon. We’re talking like, the passed two years starting with SF4. People that don’t think Capcom were attempting to make their games “more accessible” since SF2 are only fooling themselves. SF4 is just the apotheosis of a trend Capcom initiated since Super Turbo. Marvel 2 is a perfect example of a game having a rich competitive history, despite initial concerns of it being “too accessible”. Marvel 3, will indeed be another example.
Yes, Melee catered to BOTH crowds. Melee was about as accessible as a fighting game could GET. It’s also one of the fastest, most substantial fighting games out there in SPITE of its accessibility. The fact that a minority of players would spend extravagant amounts of money on travel expenses, tournament organizing, controllers and Gamecubes over the span of nearly a 8 years never stopped the uninitiated from enjoying the game the “way it was meant to be played”. It’s like saying people stopped playing basketball casually, because of the NBA. What is Sakurai’s grounds for correlation?
Obviously, I’m very emotional about this subject. The Melee community at large has every right to be. People’s condemning of this emotional response is the perfect case of lacking sympathy - you don’t sense the suffering, simply because you can’t understand it. The same way a person may look onward as he steps on a lineage of ants on the sidewalk, because those ant’s suffering are simply too distant from his senses. This might be because you hate Smash. This might be because you hate Smash players. I don’t care anymore.
All I know is; a lot of players invested a lot of time, money and emotional energy into this game for a VERY long time. I was one of them. Our efforts kept Smash RELEVANT for 8 years. I’m not saying these efforts are the reason Brawl sold a trillion copies - but it certainly didn’t hurt. In regards to corporate interests, you would think that accounts for something. To Nintendo it doesn’t. I find that insulting. Nintendo has expressed a lack of interest in my interests, so I now have a lack of interest in Nintendo. I’ve moved on.
edit
The situation is not about a sense of entitlement but an expressed rejection of my subjective experience. I don’t know how anyone wouldn’t feel upset about that. Especially if much time and energy were invested in it.
Always knew that Sakurai just didn’t “get it”. Yea, sure, Melee didn’t turn out how he wanted it…but doing what he did to Brawl was kind of childish, in my opinion. “They’re not playing MY game how I want them to play it so I’m gonna make the rules so they HAVE to play my way,” seems to be the line of logic here…which is kind of funny since it sort of goes with the general stereotype of Smashers around here when it comes to their made up rules and whatnot.
Seriously, how can you overlook the entire late 90’s up until CvS2?
Games like Super Turbo (It has “GRANDMASTER CHALLENGE” in the very name), Alpha 2, Alpha 3, 3rd Strike, and Vampire Savior were deliberately MADE for expert players.
The fact that Capcom’s fighting games became more and more complex and less accessible to casual crowds was the entire impetus towards games like HD Remix and SF4.
Corporations don’t owe competitive players anything.
Deal with it, grow up, and move on with your life. Nintendo doesn’t care if you don’t come back, and neither should you.
…Are you somehow implying Capcom versus fighters since ST somehow became more and more casual friendly until we ended up with SF4? This is so wrong and such a bizarre leap of logic I don’t even know where to start. Look at CFJ, which was the last Capcom fighter before SF4, and it’s pretty oldschool despite the hate it gets (Hate that has nothing to do with people finding it “dumbed down”, by the way)
I guess you don’t know, but there are a handful of Capcom fighters that are more demanding than ST in most if not all aspects
lol man have a tissue
The “competitive community” of any game is such a small amount of total sales, you have no idea. You kept “Smash alive” between a handful of fat dudes - When the next game came around, it sold millions of copies to all the kids that love Mario and Sonic, not to the “hardcore demographic”
The world may never know…but that’s another story.
FACT: Wavedashing is accidental. It was discovered during testing. It was left in because it looked cool.
Wavedashing is not out of Brawl. When the airdodge physics were hacked to be like melee’s, there was wavedashing.
It was well known before the game was released that Sakurai does not like or appreciate the competitive mindset. He said that he would feel bad if Japan beat a team in the world cup because they were trying their hardest.
“When designing games, you have a choice as a developer to make a low or high skill ceiling. I prefer high, so beginners and advanced players can both have fun with a game” - Paraphrased from Daisuke Ishiwatari, creator of Guilty Gear.
