This is statement of belief on your part. Example: I don’t play VF seriously but I know it’s deeper than whatever I play. What makes no sense is the idea that a game being complex (both tactically and mechanically) or rewarding people after time was required to learn it rather than right away is “bad design” or even undesired to begin with (thx again Sirlin!!11). I mean, look at ST, does all the depth matter if you just want to have fun? You could pit two people that never played sf2 one against the other and they’d be able to play and have a good time, even if they’re doing hadoukens on accident and fighting only with fierce and roundhouse
That being said, I obviously don’t think every game should be extremely complicated and full of nuances to uncover. The world needs its Farmville or w/e
You people bring up the fact that Melee caters to both the casual and hardcore, but was the latter even intentional? From what I can tell it doesn’t seem like it. The execution barrier was still low, especially in comparison to ‘normal fighting games’, the presentation is ridden with fanservice, what part of it makes you guys think he was aiming for both sides of the fence? I’ve never really felt like he was ever aiming for the ‘hardcore’ so to speak.
I mean to say the game is technical and the like is saying that Street Fighter 2 was aimed for said crowd. It’s more like it HAPPENED that way. They just happened upon glitches that made the game deeper and better for their own crowd. The same is said of Melee’s history, no?
True it happened that way but just because it was an accident doesn’t mean it wasn’t something that couldn’t be looked into. And like you said SF2 ending up the way it did was an accident, Marvel developing like it did was a fucking miracle, and melee was the same way. Sometimes accidents are the best thing to happen to a game, like DMC originally being built from a glitch and the aforementioned. And I can’t lie, Brawl is fun but it just ended up missing out on stuff that made melee special to me. I’ll admit to be extremely biased in my opinion about that.
Well that’s what I’m saying, people are saying that Melee appeals to both sides of the spectrum, casual / hardcore. I’m saying it just HAPPENS to be satisfying to the hardcore, but it was never actually created that way / made with that intention.
Melee didn’t end up like SFII or MvC3 at all, more like ended up like Alpha 3 or King of Fighters XII. You can’t even compare Smash (any) to MvC3 or SFII. So Melee had some minor accidental depth that brought it to just below the average game, big whoop de do. It’s nothing to take up arms for.
What I think is most interesting is that Melee went on to sell about 7 million units in its lifetime. Compared to how the GC didn’t sell nearly as many units in its entire lifetime as its successor has sold in just a few years, that’s damn impressive. And there clearly wasn’t a problem with adoption rates and how the “hardcores” were scaring people off, in that time. So why did Sakurai make it an issue for Brawl?
So, in my opinion, I don’t buy the whole notion that he needed to “tone” the game down. People were buying Smash because it was Smash, regardless of how much in the way of depth that was presented to them or not. That’s part of the allure of the game, being that you can play it any way you wish. In that light, simplifying things just served as a disservice to everyone.
This revelation from Sakurai is good for me. It ensures I never have to buy a Nintendo system again. What a spasmodic and myopic company. For every generation they think a generation forwards, they think two generations backwards the next (or in this case, within the very same one).
Sakurai STILL can’t figure out that Melee managed to please BOTH.
Both SFII and MvC2’s real ‘depth’ and ‘appeal’ to the ‘hardcore fans’ were purely ‘coincidental and accidental’. Street Fighter 2 popularized and created the genre, it’s a given that there would be more in store then what we got, it just so happens that what was discovered bettered the game, but only for the people who cared. The game STILL worked for the guys just fucking around at the pizza parlor, but now the hardcore had their own fun to fuck with. Capcom didn’t create ‘combos’ or ‘two in ones’ and the like for “Johnny Hardcore”, but they did run with it. MvC2 is just the same. The ‘casual’ guys get beams and shit everywhere, and the ‘hardcore’ get 56 characters’ worth of glitches and shit to work with. Melee was CLEARLY created with the intention to at least appeal to the casual / slightly intermediate crowd, but the hardcore crowd found plenty (glitches and the like) that appealed to them, in the same vein that SF2 and MvC2’s crowds did.
Just to add something to this, there’s a main difference between Melee, Smash and the more conventional fighters in your example. While both started out one way, and the communities eventually delved into it and discovered things the developers did not intend, you see how Capcom took what was discovered and began to build and implement them in latter fighting games as genuine mechanics. On the other hand, Nintendo/Sakurai had a very specific intent for Smash and did not appreciate how the competitive metagame for melee turned out. Hence the changes and blatant limitations made in Brawl. While it makes “competitive Smash” much harder it doesn’t detract from the goal Sakurai had in the first place - its still an enjoyable, crazy, fanservice, party game.
imo, if sakurai really wants to discourage the “competitive” play of smash, he should remove the items off option and the stages off option from smash :looney:
but this is the place to vent this thoughs
on topic if possible
imo one of the big mistakes is consider what was the market that sakurai is trying to appeal
he as a designer is trying to make a game to appeal a market, nintendo fanboys who geez their pants when they see the mayhem on screen.
and as any activity that the mankind practice there were be people who will expend more time in it than others, should we dismiss these people for enjoying the game/activity in a different way, perhaps on a more “hardcore” way than others?, the thing is that there will be always someone better that practice more in any game/activity, just see the time runs of mario 3 and mario 2
if he really feels that the game devolved from his vision because the hardcore payers, then that is one thing, but dissmising a part of the public that enjoy the game in a different way, that is just wrong
on a side note
i always felt that the smashers are hypocrites, they love smash and defend it to dead as a fighting game, but im pretty damn sure that they dont even consider to play other games that are on the same vein, like battle don, the konami game with optimus and simon belmont, or the game of the ninja turtles, cuz they arent smash
very true, one of the major differences of games like sf2, mvc2, gg, etc is that their developers build and expand the games with the glitches that the players found on the games, like the combos on sf, or the jump installs on gg, just to mention some
i know that is bad to generailize, but i know a lot and believe me a lot of tournament smash players, and they arent willing to try new games similar to smash cuz they arent smash/nintendo, if there are some, they are really counted, pretty much like the players that sf4 brought with it
You see… I agree totally with this… This is the precise reason why I don’t really understand why Melee players are getting pissed off. Well I do understand, no one wants to have somebody rip something you love away from you. But I don’t see why you’re getting mad at Sakurai for it. Didn’t he come out and say that he didn’t like the way the game was being played? The game was never meant to played the way they play it. So, knowing this, all the Melee players still get pissed off at Sakurai because he basically doesn’t respect what they did to HIS game. These same players need to also see it from a business standpoint. As much as game developers try to cater to Hardcore gamers…Hardcore gamers will ALWAYS be in the minority of the gaming populace (except Korea…b/c of StarCraft). Sakurai wants some money also…and Hardcore melee players won’t get him any now. Like, if all the melee players went on strike…Sakurai wouldn’t give 2 damns or a fuck because he ain’t gettin no money from you anymore.
