...So there's a hack for no tripping now

Classic Fighting Games Super Smash Brothers Brawl
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[quote=“CyntalanMaelstrom, post:80, topic:46038”]

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You owe me $2.58. The exchange rate is a penny per brain cell of mine you just killed.
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I can appeal to ridicule too. Perhaps the loss of brain cells has reduced your ability to avoid fallacious logic?

[quote=“CyntalanMaelstrom, post:80, topic:46038”]

Clearly you’re definition of irrational means “whatever disagrees with me”. The idea of “improving” is asinine. The fact that you’re going through such effort to eliminate something that is not even a big deal shows just how much you must not like this game for what it is. It seems to me like you’d be better off hacking Brawl characters into Melee than to change Brawl to be as close as you feasibly can to make it more like Melee.
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You just ignored my entire point about how we’re not trying to make it into Melee. Whether or not it’s a “big deal” is also a matter of opinion. I personally would not want the difference between $1000 1st place and $600 2nd place to have any chance of being determined by luck.

[quote=“CyntalanMaelstrom, post:80, topic:46038”]

This is true… for now. Removing tripping was an easy step, easily found, and easily hackable (as easy as hacking gets, anyway). Give them time and they’ll continue to go down that slippery slope 'til they have everything short of directional air-dodge and l-cancelling back, then they can truly circlejerk themselves to Melee 2.0.
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The no-tripping code is an AR code. It’s incredibly unlikely that there exist the possibility of codes that would allow for directional air-dodging and L-Canceling. Most of the current SWF community hates Melee anyway, as they are all “Brawl n00bs” who only play the game because of its ridiculous hype. You’re speculating very childishly, simply stating that something will happen, with no proof, because it happening would support your argument.

Eliminating randomness is hardly a harmful idea. It’s beneficial when there is money on the line, as I don’t think people are as inclined to play a game for money when there is a noticeable aspect of luck present.

Whether or not tripping is “trivial” is subjective. Again, I find tripping into Snake’s forward smash to be incredibly annoying and silly, and so it makes sense to remove it. It’s been shown to be a useless mechanic that does nothing but actually worsen the game. Why shouldn’t we remove it, then, if it serves no purpose but a negative one?

I’ve also hardly shunned or flamed anyone. I’ve been quite civil so far. And the tournament boycott was because EVO essentially spat in the face of SWF, not even asking for our input before hosting the tournament. That, and item play has been shown to lead to a stale meta-game with quite a bit more luck involved than play without items.

It’s not closed-mindedness when we’ve shown, through logic, as well as empirically, that items worsen competitive smash.

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I’m just gonna say this and leave this argument alone, as you’re completely missing the point, and this is just turning this thread into stupidity. The second you insist “random is bad”, you’ve just lost your argument that you’re not thinking closed minded. There are plenty of people here that will contest that with you, and that fact alone kills the idea that you’ve proven anything through any sort of logic, because all your logic is based on a closed minded process that random is bad. When you come to the realization that this isn’t fact but opinion, we can talk again.

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…The fact that you have to put a HACK INTO THE GAME doesn’t raise any flags as to why it shouldn’t be standard?

Astounding. Truly astounding.

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Except it’s easy to show that randomness does not support competition. Do you really want to see an IC vs. Snake finals where both players are on their last stocks, the IC, at 150% damage, sees Snake whiff a move, goes in for a 0-death grab combo, and trips, which allows Snake to f-tilt IC and win the match?

“Random is bad” is clearly just an opinion. But “randomness is worse for competition than non-randomness” is not just an opinion. At least, not by the standard of competition that better players should win.

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Random being worse for competition is indeed opinion. It really all matters where you stand. What do you get because of the random? For items, you get a whole new layer of strategy, mitigating the strength of camping, rewards for aggressive play, and a faster paced game. For tripping, it boosts the incentive of arial combat, and in a game where currently dash-in a-chains and chaingrabs rule the ground game, putting a risk factor in that, IMO, is great, regardless of how that risk is there.

To recap: just because random makes you have to play the game differently in order to make the random your advantage, doesn’t mean it’s counterproductive to competitive play. Only when it has no advantage that outweighs the “problem” of random is it indeed a problem.

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What you’re confusing is that I’m saying that the actual randomness itself is bad. You’re correct that items increase depth. That doesn’t imply that the actual randomness itself is good. It’s quite terrible, which I explained in my previous post (as you failed to address the losing situation in IC vs. Snake).

Really, the only thing that should affect whether or not you win is how well you play, not a random number generator.

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It is just as much an opinion as the other. Randomness has its place in competitive gaming and there are many competitive games with a high level of randomness to support this.

Would you really argue that randomness is bad for competition when Magic: The Gathering is staring you right in the face, with its worldwide tournaments? When the competitive Pokemon community exists? What about Super Street Fighter 2: Turbo? Guilty Gear XX? Megaman Battle Network? Star Force? Starcraft (Actually, I might be wrong on SC- but isn’t there a level of damage variation or am I thinking another RTS?)?

All of these games have a level of randomness that CAN’T be removed. And the respective communities learned to deal wih it and worked WITH it to ensure it would have the highest chances of working in their favor. And in all of those games, the better player will win 99.9% of the time.

Like everything else, though, randomness is bad when it is at such extremely high levels that the match is basically a coin flip with skill as an afterthought. Items and tripping, IMO, do not bring the level of randomness to that extreme.

EDIT: Wow, my post came so late O_o;. Conversation already moved on.

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Yeah, I’m not saying that a game is necessarily bad because of randomness. Poker, Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon are all deep games with strong elements of randomness. It’s the randomness itself that is less well suited for competition.

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:rofl:

This thread? How about this entire damn Sub-Forum.

to Cyntalan, Keits, AlphaDragoon and all the other SRK Brawlers; with all due respect, why the fck do you give a sht?

SRK has already proven that they seriously couldn’t give a damn of ANYTHING SmashBoards says, debates, concocts, or devises. You ignore any and all of the Rulesets or Tournament Standards that SmashBoards sets for their community of Smashers, en lieu of just setting your own. You do not care who are the top Brawlers on SmashBoards, nor do you give a damn about any of the tournaments that SmashBoards hosts. In addition to that, you also do not care what any of the “Higher-Ups” placed people on SmashBoards have to say about anything and everything Smash Brawl related. “SRK, we da best” or whatever you want to call it; you guys seriously go by the beat of your own drum. Hosting EVO2k8 by your own rules instead of using SmashBoards tournament standard is a testament to this paragraph.

So I’m going to just say this again, but why the heck do you suddenly give a damn what SmashBoards decides to do?

SO WHAT if this hack/code becomes the SmashBoards Tournament Standard? It’s not going to affect SRK’s ruleset in the least.

I’m baffled that this thread even exists and has not been locked yet. Do you guys seriously just fling sht at SmashBoards for the sake of flinging sht? Cyntalan has just been going on and on about how disgusted he “Oh man, I can’t believe that they can even consider it, blah blah blah”, man why the hell do you give a damn?

I’m going to guess that some of you will retort “Oh but we don’t care about what SmashBoards does, we just want to voice our disgust over the whole situation”, in that case I must say “Why thank you for sharing your infinite wisdom with everyone! I am so glad to hear the opinion on the subject from <insert SRK member>. It’s so important to me, and to the rest of the internet that your opinion is heard and acknowledged. Bless this day.” I sincerely hope that you can hear the sarcasm in that phrase.

Bottomline;

SmashBoards can do whatever the hell they want. It shouldn’t affect SRK, not even in the slightest.

and YES, the same applies Vice-Versa. SRK can do whatever the hell they want, and SmashBoards should not be affected. So don’t even try to pull that “SWF has been trying to force their rules on us” BS, because even as a SWF’er, I’ve been saying it since before the Items-On/Off bullshit happened that SWF was going about it the wrong way, and that SRK can do whatever the hell they want.

So why SRK’ers are even disgusted at the thought of something SWF does, is completely baffling to me

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Cause SRK needs to preach their high moral views about videogames from on top their towering pedestal…

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It matters when they have the majority influence over a game we’d just prefer to play more progressively, especially now that they’ve taken over Evo. Do whatever you want with your own tournaments, but the second this becomes tournament standard, it translates to Evo, and that just don’t do. Chances are, if it DID, Evo would most likely drop the game entirely, as the requirements just to get into this new tournament standard is well beyond what they’d be willing to do.

Honestly, we just think it’s absolutely ridiculous that anyone would even consider it, and it makes the community even more of a laughing stock than it already is. The act of desperation to make the game you’ve been given something it’s not is downright hilarious. That is the reason so many people here disrespect both the SWF community and the game in general. We’d actually like to see it respected by other people, but so long as the militaristic viewpoints on how the game is played by the current majority of “competitive” players, I don’t see it ever happening. The idea of hacking the game to further that agenda just makes it worse.

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When did this happen? Last I checked EVO2k8 didn’t give a flying sh*t what SmashBoards “tournament standard” for Brawls ruleset was.

Unless the EVO Staffers suddenly start caring about the opinion of SmashBoarders (Read: Care about getting a fuckton of cash from the attendance because SmashBoard Scrubbies outnumber SRK’ers about 50 to 1) Then they are going to go with the popular opinion (Read: blatant cash sell outs) which in that case, I must say you are fresh out of luck.

Why the hell are you posting here anyways? There is seriously like 6 people who read this sub-forum per day. If you don’t want SmashBoards tournament standard to accept this Hack/Code as standard, you should be convincing them at the source. if you’re already doing that, then I rest my case.

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What you’re missing is that we (that is, those here that enjoy Brawl) recognize that the current SWF standard is totally legitimate. Meanwhile, SWF balks at the very idea that ours is as well. Trust me, I’ve been arguing for a more liberal ruleset since the getgo (only to get laughed at for the very idea) and for years prior in Melee (which until the growing number of whiners outweighed the people that were in favor of items, was a pretty respectful debate, and both sides agreed neither was better). I’ll argue it 'til the end of time if I have to, and with the mentality that goes on there, it may just well be that way. No one here that has any sort of brain is saying that the CURRENT SWF way is bad. Adopting such a radical idea like hacking the game code would indeed make the notion downright laughable, however.

As it currently stands, no, I don’t see SWF adopting this. But, much like how items caused a changing of the guards in Melee (a good majority of people left the scene after the fact), if enough people start backing it, it’ll probably cause a similar dropout of people that actually have a head on their shoulders over there.

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PROTIP: I’ve been a regularly active member of Smash Boards for YEARS.

The idea is just ridiculous, period. Even if Example Smash Community in Antarctica who only had 10 members total decided “this is a good idea for tourney standards even though it’s a hack”, all 10 of them would still be retarded.

This isn’t about SWF, this is about the idea itself being ridiculous due to the fact that you have to change the code of the game to make it happen.

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Oh I’m not missing anything. I know both ways of play are perfectly legitimate, and it’s more about preference than anything (whether that preference is genuine, or brainwashed into their skulls). I said this earlier but SRK clearly sets their own rules, and doesn’t get pushed around by anyone. So whatever SWF does/says shouldn’t have any impact on SRK what-so-ever.

We are going in circles now. So I’m just going to re-iterate what I said in my first post.

Why do you give a damn if SWF’s ruleset is downright laughable?

Why do you give a damn if there is a dropout of people in the SWF community?

So If EVO staff truly doesn’t sell themselves out (as they have shown with EVO 2k8), then the answer to the above 2 questions is “I really don’t give a damn, so why am I posting?”

On the other hand, if EVO staff suddenly cares about what SWF thinks, it is batshit obvious that they are doing it to amp up the attendance. Especially when I today read stuff like this, showing Brawl being the 2nd most sold game. You can bet your ass that an attendance of 80~ at EVO2k8 for the 2nd most sold game according to NPD did not cut it with the EVO staff. If thats the case, then I would say you have more problems to worry about than what SWF does.

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Then I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I don’t think randomness is that ill suited to competition, honestly. Too fixed factors is just as bad, since without any variation at all you end up pretty much with a competitively unplayable game as soon as it’s ‘solved’ (see: Tic Tac Toe). It’s all about extremes and trying to keep from meeting them.

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PROTIP: lol ok?

What do you want me to say to that? That you are wrong? Well cause you aren’t, and anyone with half a brain can tell that too.

My point (and I’ll even use your Antarctica Smashers example) is that; Those 10 Antarctica Smashers can do whatever the fuck they want with the game they bought, as retarded as it may or may not be. It doesn’t affect YOU even in the slightest. So don’t get your panties in a knot over what some people in Antarctica do with Brawl.

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All games that are competitive and have sequels have ppl change out any time they release a new game and it doesn’t just feel like a slightly patched old version, even shooters look at halo 2-3, same reason too for the most part all the exploits gone, a few new exploits, and a rebalancing of everything always gets ppl whining.

I mean I have seen hacks becoming tourny legal one example is touhou 10.5 SWR the no weather hack was released withen days after the games release and for good reason weather while it was random the randomness could be stopped the main problem was a few characters became broke, like holy shit OMG retarded with a few of the weather effects, and they could with the right cards keep turning it on. But then again this hack is completly safe takes about 5 seconds to do can be turned off and since its a compy game, and does not void your warranty, obviously.

This hack just seems like way way way too much effort for questionable/too little gain.

Randomness is bad yeah, GG has randomness look at zappa(unless you want to wait for like 7-9 seconds to summon someone. As far as in smash G&W’s over B , misfires with luigi that CAN be life or death for his recovery. Im sure there is more but I can’t think of it right now.

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Like it or not I have to deal with SWF tournament standards if I want to go to locals / regionals. So stuff like this actually matters to me because if I want to continue playing the game competitively I have to conform to most of the standards.

[edit] Also it’s obvious you haven’t been paying attention. If brawl is in Evo next year the organizers have said on SWF they will take into consideration no items rulesets out of respect for the community (not exact words). From the sounds of it they have caved in or gotten rid of the game for next year, more than likely the former.

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Fun Fact: It’s already been confirmed that unless this community can prove it can live without Evo that Evo 2k9, if it even has Brawl at all, will let SWF have its way. This appeals to a number of people there, but I’m skeptical it’ll even get a slot, and I’d be absolutely amazed to see it get a slot if they ever adopt this hack into their ruleset. Right now, I’m doing what I can to retain Evo Brawl for what we built it to be, and if anything, I kinda hope they DO adopt this hack, 'cause it would most assuredly cause Brawl to not be there at all, and at this point, I’d rather not see it there than under SWF’s schoolyard bully mentality. Especially when to them, it’ll be Tuesday.