http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Skullgirls/Game_Systems/States
Re-wrote this page and moved in some information on stuns from the glossary page, including a change to slide stuns that’s been in the game since the alpha versions.
You seriously need some thanks or kiss from Mike Z or something.
Mike and other Reverge people (lead tester, AI programmer) have hooked up wiki info more than once for me already. Send extra thanks to them 
Obligatory late tuesday / early wednesday weekly WNF check, Pizza?
Oh hey!
No stream time but I will be there for free plays all night.
The GD thread had me asking too many questions, and I may have gone too far.
Ground throw start ups (may not be right):
(4f) Painwheel
(5f) Double, Ms. Fortune, Filia,Valentine
(6f) Parasoul
(7f) Cerebella, Peacock
Spoiler
Now actually complete/correct and with a Mike Z stamp of approval:
Character - start up + active (ground); start up + active (air)
Painwheel - 6+2, 6+2
Valentine - 7+2; 7+2
Ms. Fortune - 7+3; 7+3
Filia - 7+3; 7+3
Double - 7+3; 7+3
Parasoul - 8+3; 8+3
Peacock - 9+3; 7+3
Cerebella - 9+5; 7+3
To the 3 of you actually reading this thread, what’s the nicest frame data guide you’ve seen for any fighting game? What did you like about it?
http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/ragna.html
Love the way dustloop does theirs with the above example.
For SG, it should be like this:
Input, Damage, Meter Gain, Guard, Startup, Active, Recovery, Frame Advantage
(Notes go here under the move)
and repeat.
But PLEASE don’t do like dustloop where they include the first active frame in the startup. It’s very confusing.
Startup should show how many frames of actual STARTUP there is, and the next frame after is the start of the active frames.
So if a move has 5 frames of startup, the 6th frame is the first active frame.
The way you listed the throw frame data makes it look like there’s a super flash
6+2 looks like 6 frames before flash, 2 frames after flash is the startup.
Cand you do frame advance in SG to find out frame data?
Frame by frame is a feature I’ve heard about, but it is not in the game yet. I made my initial guesses (which are correct relative to each other!) by just standing characters next to each other and hitting throws at the same time. I assumed it was a 5f average but it was really 7f.
I think of a 6+2 throw laid out like:
0 (frame perfect input)
1 (start up)
2
3
4
5
6 (active frames start)
7
8 (recovery starts)
Is that what you’re talking about?
I don’t know if I am the third one but I can’t suggest frame data guides. =[ Sorry
Although I can point out that you listed Peacock twice and didn’t list Cerebella.
I’m such an asshole =[
ninja edit
The CvS2 framedata book was awesome. Had all the framedata tabulated as expected, but also graphed out the framedata. The graphs were awesome 'cause it let people with arithmophobia use framedata.
oh wow, google actually found it, and of course it found it off srk
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/3388/cannondrillframeser1.jpg
This picture only shows the startup/active/recovery graphed out. But if a moved had airborne, invul, or cancelability frames, it’d graph it out in a second row with all sorts of pretty colors.
As for the whole startup issue. Most everywhere lists startup as time-to-hit, rather than the true-startup. I’m not sure I’ve ever had to deal with framedata that listed startup as true-startup.
Under the time-to-hit convention, the last “frame” of startup is really the first frame of active. This is done to make lining up what moves punish what easier. A move that is -5 on block, you merely have to find a move with startup listed as 5 to punish. But startup as true startup, you’d have to find a move with listed startup as 4.
It’s really all about where you wanna add/subtract that extra 1. With time-to-hit, the extra 1 added to startup never really comes in to play unless you need the total running time of a move. But under true-startup, you’d be adding a 1 to startup everytime you’re looking for a punish or a link.
framedata shorthand is commonly written out with commas. Like: startup,active,recover (6,2,37)
Plus signs usually denote post and pre superflash frames and the like. Like a super with 5 frames of startup would be written out like: 3+2,120,9. 3 frames of pre-flash startup and 2 frames of post flash startup.
But you already written out your legend, so, shrug, I wasn’t confused.
No, the 5 frame thing was just an example.
If you say a move has 6 frames of startup and 2 active frames, it should be like this:
1 Startup
2 S
3 S
4 S
5 S
6 S
7 Active
8 A
9 Recovery
etc…
I find it makes more sense to list moves with true startup because active frames matter. Not every move only has 1 active frame so listing the first active frame AND listing the total number of active frames seems counter-productive because then you need to subtract 1 from the startup every time you want to show the proper frames of a move.
Either that, or don’t list it as “startup = 6” if it’s time-to-hit. List it as “startup = 6th” or just don’t even call it “startup” call it “1st active” because it’s always confusing to hear “oh it has 6 frames of startup” when it actually has 5 frames and people are including the first active frame by accident.
I think it’s a right way to go.
I think I get the issue here. I’m thinking of frames as a unit of time starting at 0 and they are really counting numbers starting from 1. Using this convention, if the move has 9f recovery and 16f of hit stun, it will 1f link into itself?
I thought this stuff is describing frame of animation. Like each frame have its own hurt and hitboxes. If frame has hitbox - it is active; if not - it isn’t. Am I wrong? O_o
There are very few situations where you need to calculate the total running time of a move. For those situations you just gather up all your variables, subtract the 1 as needed, and carry on with your calculations. But for most everyday use, we are concerned with when can I hit someone and when can someone hit me. For that, startup as time-to-hit does not affect the calculations, saves everyone the 1, and makes glancing over the tables very easy. The only time you have to deal with the extra 1 is when you are doing esoteric stuff like using moves as movement or figuring out how many moves you can whiff before you can be punished, and generally anything else involving whiffs. If you’re that deep in to the data, then dealing with the 1 should come naturally to you.
If we go with startup as true startup, you and everyone else will have to do math. If we go with startup as time-to-hit, you will have to do math to convert to your preferred true-startup, but everyone else is saved the trouble.
If the Skullgirls wiki is going to have framedata, we should be mindful of how framedata is done in other games. Which is as time-to-hit. This is so ingrained as such, that a lot of framedata guides don’t even tell you about the shared startup/active frame. I can’t even remember what that one game was that did their frame data as true-startup. Which also boggles me. Because if they farmed the data using a video capture method, they would get startup as time-to-hit, which means they subtracted the 1 before publishing their data, making everyone add back the one to calc punishes.
But anyways, I don’t care either way. I can just run a script over the data to convert it how I like it. But if you do it as true startup, you’re going to get a lot of questions and “corrections” about the framedata, even if you do put up a note. And I won’t help with answering them. (Ok, maybe I will.) But I don’t know, maybe that’s what we should do. Not only revolutionize fighting games, but also revolutionize framedata.
Basically, the issue I’m stressing is clarity. Saying “6 frames of startup” should mean exactly that: It takes 6 frames for the move to start, then on the 7th, the move is active. Just because other games do it doesn’t mean it’s clear, it just means the people who know about it are comfortable with this type of notation.
We could write it as time-to-hit, but then I don’t think we should be calling it startup, because it isn’t. You’re saying “this is the first active frame” so, it doesn’t matter what the number of the actual start-up is, nor does the rest of the move’s data matter. You may as well just have one piece of information for the move listing the first active frame.
If you want a proper complete set of data for moves, everything should be listed as true frames.
I think it needs:
Input
Damage (already in the basic movelist table)
Meter Gain
Start up
Active
Recovery
Guard (meaning high/mid/low)
Block Stun
Block Advantage
Hit Stop
Hit Stun
Hit Advantage