I spoke to Sirlin in the comments.
Because it’s a game you play with other people, he thinks it should undergo a rebalance or remaking process especially since it’s in extremely bad shape balance-wise.
He said something interesting though that I feel the need to point out
In which I replied
HD Remix wasn’t well received?
He means among the hardcore community.
Any way have fun running around with this thread. I dunno who shoved this crap here but it’s getting closed soon.
You know that be being ignorant and condescending you’re only helping me prove my point, right?
He sounds like one of those abusive husbands who keeps telling this wife/kids its for their own good.
“Oh honey, just because I’m insisting you get a face lift and a boob job doesn’t mean I don’t love you, its BECAUSE I love you, can’t you see that?”
His argument would work if 1) 3s was a living, breathing, thinking, reasoning being which leads to 2) wanted to improve themselves in some way. I won’t walk up to a fat person, especially a girl, and say you should really hit the gym. However, if they came to me and said I want to change this about myself, I would completely support them and say I’m willing to help any way I can.
Sirlin is coming in from the outside of the couple to the neighbor he hates (that really did nothing to him) to say “Hey your daughter/son/wife needs help and I have just the fix!”
Plus, the fact that we saw what he did with what he claims to love (SF2), is sort of like a “hey why are you here get away you’re a bad person” type thing for this community. We saw the split happen in the SF2 community. We saw the game rise and fall quickly. We see it being trashed all the time and passed over in favor of the older game.
Rather than put ourselves through the same thing, and Derek as a part of the fighting game community most likely realized it as well even though it still probably wasn’t his last say, we would rather have what we have loved forever, the way we fell in love with it than take a chance to royally fuck it up in the long run. It changed, grew, evolved over time and we still loved it despite the “flaws” and we accept them. The only change we wanted was a more accessible way for us to play it without having to use an outdated console or shoddy (but was just fine for what it was) online emulation.
GGPO 3s was sacrificed for a larger audience, of that 90% will leave the game no matter what would have happened, rebalance or not, while the old guard will still stand because its what we always had and always wanted all along. With a rebalance or changes, that old guard would not have come out and the game would have stood on bad support by the community itself. Because lets be real, once the casuals leave, who’s left? The community. What does the 3s community want? 3s.
Damn, Mr.X, you are so romantic!!! I LOVE 3S BECAUSE OF ITS QUIRKY LAUGH, TOO! Seriously though, I agree with what you said.
Did he reply back? And does Sirlin have any credibility in the 3S community to even warrant a balance change? When I think of someone mentioning balance changes, I would like to think MOV would be the one to speak up first. You know, 'cause he is a grandmaster, and knows the in-and-outs of 3S.
Maybe among the OG “hardcore” community, but if a guy who hadn’t played ST won EVO in HDR , obviously there was a hardcore HDR-only community that popped up. Much of the salt over HDR was due to this , and that the OG’s couldn’t win like they felt they should.
BTW I wouldn’t pick Sirlin to remix 3S, but it doesn’t take a genius to know that the game could be better then how it turned out. Whether it’s profitable to do so is another question (and my guess is no, due to the community and the fact that new players are unlikely to stick around like they did with HDR)
This. Damn, SRK.
At the risk of being beaten like a dog, who is MOV and how can I find out more about this gentleman?
MOV is an amazing 3S player in Japan that uses Chun Li
I don’t know, that sounds strange to me. Like I love this country America but I’m not gonna to lie to myself and say that there’s somethings that aren’t currently wrong with it. Me, loving this country I seek to have these things improved if not for my own personal interests then for the interests of everyone else that lives here because I love this country.
Your point makes you sound very reactionary and I can’t help but feel you are furthering Sirlin’s anti-progress argument.
i’m not a sirlin hater. just like anyone else, he has good ideas and bad. his thoughts that there is a regression within the community because 3S players didn’t demand balance changes is off base. having the game as is will be like a litmus test for the community, and will determine why it has long-lasting appeal.
the main culprit in the regression of fighting games falls into simplifying controls and having more leniency on inputs, which falls into sirlin’s and ono’s school of thoughts.
when you lower the ceiling, there is only so much you can do to progress. t-hawk in ST vs t-hawk in HDR is a perfect example of lowering the ceiling for what you can do to compete. anyone who plays the two of them will tell you how much more difficult it is to play with the ST version with all of his option-selects. it takes a lot of dedication to maximize ST hawk’s potential, not so much with the limited HDR version. how is there progress if there is less room to learn and expand?
the number of options become more limited within this school of thought. let’s say there are three options available: A- most high damaging but most difficult to execute. B- fair damage, easier to execute. C- little damage, easiest to execute. now, let’s just make option A easiest to execute. option B and C become obsolete. in doing this, you get more people playing at “high” levels of play but really everyone is playing in a densely populated area of only one option.
now if all three options are kept as they were (with the three levels of difficulty), the game changes drastically. two players will go into a game not knowing if the other has all three options at their disposal. both are going to have to feel the other out. if one uses an option C tactic, the other has an idea of what he’s up against and now will play accordingly. he can now risk more to gain more because his opponent’s abilities are limited. if the opponent had used B, well, you’re not quite sure what this guy can do yet and you’re going to risk less. if option A was used, you know that this guy is at the top of his game and you can not make a mistake, especially if you don’t have option A at your own disposal.
there is a multitude of differences in gameplay when there are levels of difficulty in execution. a player can actually bait a mistake by not using his most damaging options early. you can actually allow your opponent to get into a habit of playing recklessly because he doesn’t know that you have the TOD at your disposal. once the third round starts, he opens with a reckless tactic and loses over 60% of his health and is stunned, he finds out too late what you’re capable of. on the other hand, if everyone can already maximize damage, none of this matters. so what if your opponent hadn’t used his most damaging tactic early, you already know it’s still at his disposal because it’s easy to do.
so not demanding a balance change has little or nothing to do with the regression of fighting games. when you limit depth by allowing easier controls and input leniency, that’s when things really go downhill. the games that lasted over the last ten years are all games that have low to high levels of execution involved and funny thing is most of them are unbalanced. all other games died because it didn’t take much dedication to unlock their potential.
if capcom wants to make a bunch of money by allowing everyone to feel better about themselves, i can’t fault them for that. they’re a business. on the other hand, if they want to make something that stands the test of time, they need to go back and re-release the games that people still play to this day (untouched, ie no balance changes, easier inputs, etc) and take notes on why those games are still being played. i’ll tell them it’s the depth involved with execution being a large part of that, but they need to find out for themselves i guess.
tranny lover.
“I love ____ but …” is just a way to avoid hurt feelings and a more tactful way saying I’d love it more after these changes (assuming these changes prove to be improvements).
It’s like saying “No offense but…” or “I don’t mean to offend you but…” so they can say something offensive instead of just saying the offensive thing outright. “You could lose so weight” and “I love you but you could lose some weight” is the same message and terrible to say when they’ve been the same weight from the beginning.
I don’t know how many times people need to tell you that this isn’t the case.
Then tell me what this means
It looks like he saying classic single player games can be left alone but classic games where you play with other people, maybe you should ask for a rebalance and the original game.
I’m not sure the relationship analogy work here…
For any relationship to work both parties will have to make compromises and sacrifices.
And it’s not like 3S is a living breathing thing being with emotions. If you tell it that “you’re broken ass bitch and you need balancing fixes” it won’t take the kids and spend the weekend at her mother’s. I’m not exactly sure where you going with that.
Telling someone I care about that they need to loose weight is probably out of concern for their health and safety. I wouldn’t bother telling them that if I didn’t love them in some way.
Where are you trying to go with this actually?
Just like how well he did with HDR Right guys? Let’s go to XBL/PSN and see how the 10/12 left over users are doing right now. Sirlin’s opinions have always been bloated like his ego. Pretending to talk to these ‘‘top’’ players and top players coming out and going no you didn’t? But back on topic with SF:3rd Strike, Don’t you dare make a remix version it will be just as awful as HDR.
I pretty much agree with this entire post. And yes, there is nothing wrong with wanting to want changes or a rebalance to something you like. There are plenty of other competitive games I play that are either constantly updated or could use some changes for a better experience.
But see, here’s the thing, and I will say this on behalf of myself and nobody else. While I admit 3S has flaws, I also believe that this game rewards effort. I have put in a LOT of time, effort and patience into this game, and while I’m no super top player, I feel like I have a good understanding on how to deal with matchups that may seem tough or all-but-impossible based on stats. I may not win those matchups all the time, but if I lose I know it’s usually because the other guy was better than me.
Again, I’m not saying that this game is balanced, and if I chose to play ohhh a top-tier character first then my progress time would probably be cut in half. These days I still play other characters, including top-tier(my mains are still Q and Urien, though). Either way, the end results have always been satisfying, and they have ALWAYS outweighed the game’s flaws for me. I’m sure a lot of other players think the same way, no matter which they choose. Some people may be overly passionate about this game and will go to great lengths to try and say ridiculous stuff like “YOU CAN BEAT ANYONE WITH LOW TIER CUZ OF PARRIES” or “THIS GAME IS BALANCED LOOK AT KURODA”, and extremist attitude in general is just retarded. Still, my overall thoughts are “this game is so good and fun that all the positives far outweigh the negatives” and I don’t really want any more changes done.
This is how I feel about 3rd Strike. Like I said before, I get what Sirlin is trying to say and I agree with his points. I’m just saying “c’mon, 3S isn’t all THAT bad”. I’m not trying to put it on a pedestal and say it’s vastly superior to other games, either. It’s just what I think. :V