Sirlin.net: "The Anti-Progress Attitude"

[Endless]

I don’t play 3S. If the issues are really not that serious, then that’s good, but the issues exist regardless. After having this game for 12 years, all of its intricacies should be known, which I think makes a perfect opportunity to improve upon it. I would say the same for a number of other great games, like GGXXAC, SFA2, and KOF 2000. They are really fun games, but not perfect, and I would absolutely support rebalancing to make them even better.

In Sirlin’s post, he basically said that by choosing Yun or Chun, it’s instantly a “WIN” button. That certainly is not the case.

The balance difference in 3S isn’t nearly as huge and insurmountable as Sirlin makes it out to be, and Sirlin did the community a huge disservice by posting both of those up, as new players like yourself immediately come into the game with a bias and mindset against 3S, especially from him being someone who doesn’t play the game at all.
Once again, my earlier point about a random person who hates skateboarding complaining about and wanting to make changes to competitive skateboarding.

Read what ShinjiGohan wrote. A good game is fun and has decent balance, but perfect balance doesn’t necessarily equate to fun.

And even on a larger scale, 3SO included System Direction dipswitches so anyone can mess up the game in almost any way they want and have private tourneys that way. Don’t like parrying? Turn parrying off.
In addition to that, you can ban characters in online play if you set up a tourney (So you can ban Yun and Chun if you really want).

[Macarratti]

imo a competitive 12 and sean would make the game worse. sean is dan. anyone with a brain can gather that in 3s he was designed to be weak. 12 is annoying to fight and if i had to fight him anymore than i currently do I’d like 3s less.

WHAT

[RidianFable]

imo a competitive 12 and sean would make the game worse. sean is dan. anyone with a brain can gather that in 3s he was designed to be weak. 12 is annoying to fight and if i had to fight him anymore than i currently do I’d like 3s less.

Yeah but what about those of us who actually played Sean before 3s(double impact on dreamcast)? Having my favorite character turned to shit right for no reason right around the time I began learning how to play correctly was kind of shitty. Who knows what could have happened had 3s sold better.

snip

Wasnt Hungbee literally one of the top 3 players in the country for like 3 years yet he always ended up getting shafted right before top 8 by lesser chun players?

[bmckay]

Snip

You know, I’ve always liked this guy!

He gets it.

End of the day, a re-release is not synonymous with remake. Go ahead a remake any game you want, guys. Some of us will buy it. Most of us will play it (even if only for a little while) but keep your purpose in mind. Re-release OR remake. They are mutually exclusive. Oh, one can contain the other, it cannot be said that one should undeniably BE the other.

It’s all about options.

Sent from my Gundam. In space. Beefin’.

[Infil]

As has been said numerous times, I don’t think anyone is against 3rd Strike being rebalanced and released as a new title.

It’s just that Capcom promised us 3rd Strike in this version of the game, and that’s what we want. Not “almost 3rd Strike”, or “3rd Strike… but better*!” I’m glad we got 3rd Strike.

• Better according to some elusive backroom of Capcom rebalancers, not necessarily the players

FMJaguar is smart, too. He knows that global acceptance of the game is just as important as how good it is. Why even play a theoretically better 3rd Strike if tournaments don’t adopt it, because the only people still playing and liking 3rd Strike’s mechanics are the ones who prefer the “worse” old game?

With all that said, though, I’m up for the theoretical rebalancing of fresh, new games that are still trying to iron out their kinks (like SSF4). It just has to be done in a timely way. 3rd Strike is past that window… the game is what it is after 12 years on the market. Implement your ideas for rebalancing into SSF4 or MvC3 or SFxT, games where it’s wanted.

[Endless]

Your analogy sucked though. I don’t know if he ever said he disliked the game but he sure didn’t say so there and even if he did that doesn’t at all imply that he’s unfamiliar with the game and wouldn’t know what to based his reasons on for not actually liking it.

And just stop with the anecdotal argument.

You must be smoking some wicked stuff to not see his hatred towards 3S.

He’s not familiar with the game, deal with it.

[the7k]

imo a competitive 12 and sean would make the game worse. sean is dan. anyone with a brain can gather that in 3s he was designed to be weak. 12 is annoying to fight and if i had to fight him anymore than i currently do I’d like 3s less.

Sean was fucking beast in Second Impact, and it’s a shame we don’t see characters like Twelve as much - he has some of the most interesting attack animations I’ve seen in a fighting game.

[Infinite]

He’s not familiar with the game, deal with it.

Prove it.

[kingedawg]

I think we’re all missing the obvious point here: Is Sirlin right or wrong about 3S? Who knows. Is he a dipshit? Yes. Here’s a guy who started reading a random review about 3SO (because game designers have plenty of time on their hands), caught a line about re-balancing ports, and immediately thought his manhood was being questioned. So he launches into this sad rant because he thinks it’s all about him and that he DIDN’T fuck up HDR (yes, you did). And then he eventually starts plugging his own shit. I’m pretty sure Miyamoto did this exact same thing after reading a review of Crash Bandicoot.

Let’s put one last nail in this coffin. When HDR was announced and conceived, it was supposed to be simply an HD redraw of ST, and it looked pretty damn good. All of a sudden, Sirlin got his mitts on it, decided it was going to be an “entirely new game,” and hooked the thing up to his Game Genie and started messing around. Meanwhile, the artwork (which if you’re keeping score, is the “HD” part of the title) took a backseat, eventually getting downgraded for the sake of time (not that it was ever animated correctly in the first place), and if you ask me, Sirlin’s tinkering was a key factor in that. That’s actually what pissed me off the most about HDR.

What I’m saying is, fuck you, Dave Sirlin. Start acting like a goddamn professional.

[Azrael]

If you can do that parry during a heated EVO (not casuals) match against a solid opponent then yes it’s a display of skill. Look at you though, downplaying that moment as if anyone can just sit there and tap forward 17 times and win.

Stay ignorant, kid.

It’s an awesome display of Daigo not cracking under pressure. If anything, the moment shows how awesome he is. You were attempting to use it to show how awesome 3S is. Not the same.

People are lazy. We like instant gratification that’s easy to understand. Everything on the line, do or die moment, the odds against you kind of stuff. Take football - let’s say it’s the Super Bowl, home team is down by 5 points, they have the ball on their own 5 yard line with a minute left to go in the 4th quarter. In one scenario, the home team runs a series of smart plays utilizing the sidelines and their remaining time outs, methodically marching the ball down the field until finally their running back dives into the end zone from 2nd and short for the winning score. In another scenario, the quarterback makes no gain after 3 failed plays - on 4th and long with 9 seconds left in the game, he drops back and runs around while his receivers scramble downfield. Just as the offensive line crumbles before him he fires a Hail Mary downfield - amidst a sea of opposing players, one cornerback leaps up and makes a one-handed catch as he falls into the end zone for the win.

The first scenario involved much more strategy, more thought and planning, and a more intimate knowledge of football in general. The last one was pretty much just tossing the ball up and hoping for good things. And while people who know and appreciate football would be on the edge of their seats for the first scenario, we all know the second one is the one where people would get up out of their seats screaming. It’d be all over highlight reels, and even people who don’t know anything about football would say “Wow, that was amazing!” Instant gratification.

Daigo parry was instant gratification. The Hail Mary of fighting games, if you will. Yes, it took incredible nerves to do that in the biggest tournament in the world with people going crazy behind you. No, I probably wouldn’t have been able to do the same even if I can parry Chun’s super in training mode or regular casual play. But again, all it was was one good read and then good execution under pressure. Once Daigo parried the first hit, he was going to win so long as he didn’t screw up. And from that range, it wasn’t a miraculous guess that Justin would try to do super there.

For comparison, I offer you thisDaigo vs Alex Valle Ryu mirror match from Socal Regionals last year, which for me is one of the best comebacks I’ve seen in recent times. From 2:48 onward, Valle has to outplay Daigo consistently. It’s not one good read and solid execution, he has to nearly reverse-perfect Daigo. There’s a lot going on in these final moments of the match, one of the more insane ones being the EX Shoryuken at 3:21. Not only does it require a great guess AND intimate knowledge of the game/character…the match isn’t finished yet! Valle just manages to stay alive at this point, and despite the matchup being much closer to even now, Daigo can still win as easily as Valle can.

I consider this comeback to be hundreds of times better than the Daigo parry. Is it as hype? No. No one passes this vid around as “OMG, check out this nonsense!” People who don’t understand fighting games won’t look at it and understand the subtleties of what’s going on. It’s not instant gratification at all.

To be fair, I think there are better comebacks within 3S than the Daigo parry, I simply used the SF4 example because, as I said, this is one of my favorite comebacks in recent times. Perhaps some 3S fans could link to some awesome comebacks for comparison.

Daigo parry is hype, but it’s not the ultimate showcase of Street Fighter skill. Most hype moments in competitive gaming/sports aren’t.

[TrollThisSRK]

Sirlin’s core argument is that the community shouldn’t be unilaterally opposed to rebalancing a game, especially when that game has obvious, serious, fixable problems, and the fact that they are represents a danger to the health of the community as a whole. The only thing you said there that addresses that argument is that a rebalance would necessarily split the community (which isn’t a fact, btw). Then you go on to say that a rebalance would be “cool” and that you’d play it.

So wtf?

No, his core argument is that what they did with 3SOE was counter productive, and wrong in general. Thats why its in the TITLE OF THE ARTICLE.

So you’re saying that doing something the way that the VAST majority of the community wanted it is ‘unhealthy’. Who is sirlin/you to tell the community whats good for it? You know what would be bad for the community/business? Spending a lot of money giving the community something they don’t want.

And yes it is a fact that it would split the community. Some people would play the old and not the new. Some people would play the new and not the old. There. Fact. Plain as day. You have serious reading/logic comprehension issues.

[aku]

Apparently you don’t, since a “love letter to the community,” should, in Sirlin’s view, include balance changes. His point is that the fact that it apparently doesn’t is a problem with the community itself.

I typed that post prior to knowing Sirlin put up a new article on his definition of “love letters”. Which I disagree with anyway.

[Infil]

Azrael: is it not a good thing that 3rd Strike is capable of both instant gratification hype moments AND smart, strategic comebacks at the same time, then? Can’t we like both? One appeals to our human nature to root for the underdog, and the other lets us geek out with other fighting game fans in a language only we understand. It’s not a bad thing.

[Kristoph]

After having actual discussions with actual community members for years, I think that the 3s (and ST) communities really are fine with updates, they just want it to be part of a successful production, and not a wild goose chase. The community is not rejecting the idea of rebalancing, but placing a ‘no confidence’ vote in the ability to actually implement it and have a successful worldwide scene for it.

If what you’re saying is true, then 3s fans should still be bemoaning the fact that Capcom hasn’t rebalanced the game. The tone seems to have been “cool! I’m glad they didn’t screw things up for us,” when it should really be, “well, they didn’t screw things up, but it would have been nice if they had at least tried to fix the glaring problems with the game.” Is it realistic to expect Capcom to suddenly turn around and say “oh? great to hear! well, in that case, here’s your perfect rebalanced update to third strike, which doesn’t split the community, is embraced by all countries and brings third strike back to eternal relevance!”? No, but encouraging them to take steps towards that sort of goal is a good thing. It’s about having a mentality that promotes improvement where improvement is warranted, and in third strike’s case, it’s definitely warranted.

[xesaie]

if you’re not seeing them being against rebalancing, you’re really not paying attention.

Most of this community has a serious anti-patching fetish. They’d rather have a worse product because the old games didn’t get changed, and that’s the position they’re supposed to take.

[Dizz]

Coming to SRK to look at combo threads and find this thread instead. Hai, I talked about this today : http://iplaywinner.com/news/2011/8/25/the-salty-runback-no-remixes.html

[Endless]

Prove it.

Once again, you must be smoking some crazy stuff if you honestly believe that he is familiar with 3S.
Simply go back to his original post and read what he said about Yun and Chun. If he really was familiar with 3S he would realize that it isn’t nearly as bad as he said.

Quote from David Sirlin:

There’s a problem: 3s is one of the worst balanced fighting games around. I mean that literally. It’s hard to even come up with worse balanced fighting game than it, yet if you throw a stick at a pile of fighting games, you’ll hit a better balanced game.

If he knew anything about 3S, he wouldn’t have made such an ignorant blanket statement

[Good_Game_Player]

if you’re not seeing them being against rebalancing, you’re really not paying attention.

Most of this community has a serious anti-patching fetish. They’d rather have a worse product because the old games didn’t get changed, and that’s the position they’re supposed to take.

because patching usually leads to stupid changes to appease whiners that result in a worse game

[Fivec]

No, his core argument is that what they did with 3SOE was counter productive, and wrong in general.

No, actually, it isn’t. Ask him yourself if you want to. Or learn to read.

And yes it is a fact that it would split the community. Some people would play the old and not the new. Some people would play the new and not the old. There. Fact. Plain as day.

So what, like Super Street Fighter IV split the community? Like Super Street Fighter II Turbo split the community? Like how any sequel or update ever splits the community? You’re referring to a specific type of splitting the community, one that damages the game’s life. It’s not a fact that any rebalancing is going to accomplish that.

You have serious reading/logic comprehension issues.

lol.

[RidianFable]

because patching usually leads to stupid changes to appease whiners that result in a worse game

Than the issue is the fact the Capcom is listening to the wrong people in terms of rebalancing newer games. I would like to believe that if they took only the opinions of the japanese hermit guys that are so coveted we would end up with something pretty special. 10+ years of experience should assure that every avenue has been attempted.