Does Honda need any anticiaption to beat Blanka if he backs his butt to a corner when he has a lead in life… No he just sits, zones with a cr. jab, and head-buts the shit out of any aerial attack, on reaction.
This is indeed a very powerful trap. Seriously, after you throw the fireball you just wait and see what he does. It is purely a reactionary trap.
DJ can’t jump over it.
The key to the trap is the fast recovery on Sims Fire ball, block stun, DJ’s slow ass jump, and the hit boxes on DJ’s jumping attacks.
At the right range, Sim can just pelt out Jab FB’s over and over. If DJ manages to get a jump out between hit stuns of the fireballs, no matter the attack, Sim recovers just fast enough to short slide under the attacks and Fierce throw DJ in his landing frames back into the corner. Even is DJ Techs the throw, he going to land on a fireball an reset the trap.
DJ can’t SB Sim’s fire balls.
At this range DJ can’t charge for FB’s fast enough to keep pace with Sims, he’ll eventual have to block or eat a jab fire ball in the face.
DJ can’t FK through it.
None of the Flask kicks will hit Sim a this range. They go through the fireball, cause DJ to land right in front of or right behind Sim, which is met with a Fierce throw back to the corner.
DJ can’t slide
Duh, does go under fireballs.
DJ can’t sobat kick.
Duh, does go through fireballs.
DJ can’t jump str8 up
IF DJ jumps up to avoid the FB, Sim can just throw another fireball. OR if Sim want to be a little bitch he can use far crouching Strong/Feirce as a AA.
The real bitch of this trap is actually getting DJ in the corner with out a super. Against a good DJ player, that is very hard.
Secondly, the feeling of this trap takes a bit to get used to. YOU have to get good at seeing the frames. If you see DJ take to the air you need to make sure it is a jump or FK. Your positioning is very important.
There are ton of videos on the internet with SIM doing this to DJ, However, you never see more than jus the additional jab fire balls, because the DJ players jest keep blocking. This is b/c they know if they do anything their GGPO.
For the record this isn’t some bullshit theroy fighter. I have used against many good DJ players. PHil, Afro, and several at Evo. As, I said b4 the difficultly is actuall getting DJ in this situation.
Lastly, my brother has a video capute card that only works at 5 frames/second is the cool with you all?The video may be a little chopy. And, can anyone point to a program that can convert AVI to window media player files?
I understand the theory behind it, but I would actually like to see it in action. I appreciate the rundown but a video would allow me to see exactly what is happening.
What capture card is it? 5 frames/second doesn’t sound right for a capture card. Perhaps It may have something to do with the software settings?
Many conversion programs out there, but most are pay for. Not sure about good free ones as they tend to try and load some spyware/malware on your system.
Dude it took me all of 3 seconds (1:26), and one view of the video to see what happened.
Read my post again and watch the video again.
I said “Throw a jab fireball, wait and counter.”
KKY broke his own zone. He hit a cr.strong. DJ blocked, the block stun pushed KKY out of range. KKY threw a fire ball from the wrong position to try to maitian pressure and DJ read it and jumped…
The only reason he did a cr.strong their was b/c he thought DJ was going to SB. B/c any other mover dj would do there could have hit Sim. It was a HUGE mistake on KKY’s part.
I never said, “Try to ‘read’ DJ and try some psychic counter.”
Here is another way to look at it: If Dhalim can lock a good boxer in a coner with a reactionary trap Why can’t he do it to DJ? Just b/c it is harder to find video of it, does mean it doesn’t exist.
See the Gian trap in the evo 3 v3 side tourny on CB’s cab against Mike Watson… Yeah, Mike Watson… one of the most successful US players ever.
[media=youtube]rVkEU11ANME[/media] look at min 7.12.
and again
[media=youtube]5j-vg2QWNpo[/media] at 5.45.
I know I said it before… I’ll find the vids… There is a great vid showing where a Sim player takes out 3 DJs in a row.
I am tried to make the vid. But I do not have the know how to do so well. The capture is to slow and choppy.
(Can anybody tell point me in a diretion in how to record play through my xbox. I’ll get some one to help me. But, I’ll need to record it.)
I wrote a whole write up on why it works… I would love to hear why you think it wouldn’t? :tup:
Oh! Here is another example of the Boxer Zone. It is from the Mikado Rambat. It is K (no fucking scrub) vs. Gian; Gian pretty muched used the zone the whole round of round one @ 3.31 and on, and most of round two in parts.
OK. Here is an example o the DJ jab fireball zone. It is fair. It is not the tightest one I have seen, but fair. You see in the VERY first round and VERY last rounds on the video.
I know I have one SOMEWHERE that shows an even better execution of the zone but I am having a very hard time finding it
However, it looks like i need to coorect something… I said there are a ton of videos showing this. I guess I remebered incorrectly, there are only a few videos showing this.
I’m sure KKY did make some mistakes that fight, he did lose after all. The point is if the Deejay zoning was so ironclad, so easy to lockdown, it probably would have happened.
Deejay has his own projectile, Boxer doesn’t.
Apples and oranges. Showing vids of Sim zoning a completely different character than the one you inferred is basically irrelevant.
I have already, when I mentioned anticipation. You claimed that anticipation wasn’t an issue, that the trap was 100% reaction. I asked to see vids so I could judge for myself, to which you haven’t been able to provide.
Even in the one vid you did find even after a significant lockdown that Deejay was still able to escape the corner.
Looking at the video you provided there is an obvious reason why the trap wouldn’t work as you describe - Deejay has his own projectile. In the area where Sim is pressuring with repeated yoga fires, Deejay can max out every second one or so. That builds meter for Deejay and eventually after some blocked yoga fires, he will have a super.
Your making a huge assumption here, your assuming KKY never makes a mistake. You can’t make a statement like it probably would have happenend. Players make in game mistakes all the time. Probably… is probably, it is denfiately not certainty.
Did we watch the same video? The trap DID work. Your playing theroy fighter now… Your max out “every second fireball” theroy doesn’t work in realy life. If DJ ever starts to do that, sim gets free hits all over the place on DJ’s delay, or at least with trades in Sim’s favor.
Learn to play N.Dhalsim… You’re agruing with me… and you don’t even see the flaws in own in your counter point. ANY serious and expereinced Sim player instantly knows where your “every second fireball trap” fails.
Before, I tell you why it wouldn’t, I would like to you tell me why you think it would work. If you can make judgement on why it wouldn’t work, give the reasons why, not just block every other until you build meter…
Once your done, I will be more than happy to provide the thereory, frame data, hit boxes, and damage trades to prove my point. I will write you a huge book in where it fails.
I have used trap against many good players once I was able to get them in the corner. I don’t need to name drop to prove my point. I really don’t care if you beleive me or not. The trap works, I have gone to EVO and used it, I played with some great players and used it. I have BEAT some good DJ players using it.
What I am saying is if your theoretical trap was so efficient and brutal it is likely KKY would have applied it there. He could have messed up, but a player of his level shouldn’t mess up your awesome trap.
I’m starting to wonder…
It did?
Didn’t you say that the Deejay player would be all “GGPO” if he were put in the trap, like he wouldn’t escape or something?
Looks to me like he did escape the corner.
Actually it was you who was playing theory fighter, I simply went along.
No he doesn’t. Deejay can react to Sim too you know. A good Deejay will only throw his Max out on reaction to the Sim yoga fire. As long as the Deejay reflexes are as good as your theory Sim’s he should be able to charge a super as I detailed.
New Sim’s recovery from yoga fire is the same as old Sim.
You’re not really making any sense here. For some reason your theory Sim can simply react to everything Deejay does, yet the Deejay doesn’t get the same benefit during the match.
I gave you a reason, you didn’t like it. Not because it wouldn’t work, but because you think that Sim will somehow punish a Deejay who will only Max out on reaction to a Sim yoga fire?
That doesn’t even make sense.
Please do.
I never asked for any names.
You don’t care if I believe you yet you will write a huge book on it?
I’m sure the trap is effective. Anytime you get an opponent in the corner you can apply very effective pressure.
I’m not saying it isn’t effective or useful. I am saying it isn’t how you painted it to be. Precisely:
Obviously you overstated the effectiveness of this trap. It isn’t ironclad. It isn’t GGPO time. It is effective and tough for Deejay to deal with.
Good players make mistakes all the time. ~AND~ It is not MY awesome trap, I staight ripped if off of a couple japanese tourny videos. I would love to say this is “MY” trap. But it is not. I watched it, I stole it, I studied it, and I have used it a lot. Just because it is not in your kowledge base does not mean it doesn’t exist.
Your right he did escape. I said that wasn’t the best example of the trap but it was pretty close. Please watch the video again: How much life did he lose in the corner? How much life did he have when he finally got out? How fast did he lose the life? Did Sim control the space? Did sim controll the tempo? Did Sim react or anticpate?
The answers are: he lost a good amount of life (about 70~75%), he came out with a little bit of life (~15%), He lost it in about 20 ticks of the counter. Sim controled the space, Sim controled the tempo, 5/5 hits in the zone where reactions to DJ’s actions… Sounds like a good trap to me.
It is not theory fighter if it actually works. You asked me to explain it and I did.
How much block damage is he going to take? How long is a “every other sonic boom” going to take to charge his bar.
Let say that is all that happens. I would gladly take a Sim with 30% more life than a DJ with a full super bar in this match.
Ok. DJ does what you say… And then what? As soon as Sim sees the super, he will just jump back. Is DJ going to chase down Sim? That can be an even faster way for DJ to lose.
No he doesn’t. Not in the same way. Sure DJ may be able to “react” but he fails to controll space, the tempo of the match, or press any advantage, or even damage Sim in any advantageous way…
WTF? I was not talking about his Fire Ball. I do not know how to pLay OLD sim well. Talk to Shirts about that. I am not sure how this trap would would work in all it detail for O.Sim.
That is what Sim does, at the right distance, and fireball speed, all Sim has to do his hit st. far fierce. If Dj reacts to Sims FB, Sim recovers first, the fireballs cancel, Sim hits DJ in his reocvery. End of story. DJ lose 13% of a life bar… He will not be doing that for long, if he does, he’ll be dead b4 he builds his meter.
Sim can do this with all the fire ball characters at the right distance. Which can be done in the Zone. The fact that you don’t factor this in to your “every other FB” counter is what perplexes me.
No you didn’t. I didn’t give any… and…
Who said the book would be for you? I am saying I don’t care if you don’t believe me. ‘Writing the book’ to disprove your point of view, and is completely exculsive and independant of whether or not I care if you believe me.
I care to disprove your point, I don’t care of you believe it. :lovin:
The trap is easy, it is reactionary, and DJ is going to lose a lot of life if not get KOed. That to me sounds like GGPO material to me.
Lastly? Have you ever even tried it? Have you ever even used it in a match? If you haven’t even tried it… you have very little right to challange it.
Get together with a friend. Spend sometime trying it out. Play some matches, even if just causual, and then come back and actually bring an expereinced point of view (on the trap) into this discussion about it.
Then maybe you’ll see that I am not talking out my ass here. If you get to practice it, try it out, and still problems with it, then we have something to really to debate.
Until then know that I (I would classify myself as a good player) have actually used the trap to beat average, good, and great players all over California. Where do you play? Where have you used it? Are you really sure that it will not work?
Who said it wasn’t in my knowledge base? I simply told you it didn’t work as you originally described.
That is not relevant to the discussion. Deejay escaped your previously unescapable trap.
You have exagerated how effective the trap was, believing it to be game over once initiated.
You are wrong.
It is a good trap.
Good, not unbeatable.
So now Deejay can’t throw his max outs on reaction to yoga fire? You referred to that tactic as theory fighter, but you can bet it works.
He’s probably going to take a good bit of block damage, but that scenario is better than sitting in the corner for the entire round.
The match proceeds as it would have before Deejay was put into the corner, which would be the point.
Deejay isn’t trying to control space in this scenario, he’s trying to get his ass out of the corner and I gave you a way in which that can happen.
Fatboy, when you are discussing something with another poster you need to actually pay attention to what is being said.
I’m not talking about Deejay reacting late to the yoga fire. If Deejay reacts in the same manner and speed that you have your theory Sim reacting at he should be safe from such a tactic.
Maybe you don’t get it. You made a point about not dropping any names, but nobody asked you for any, so your point is basically pointless.
You did, right here:
Remember what I said earlier about paying attention?
No, you painted it as a trap so dominating that the Deejay was paralyzed with fear and did nothing once initiated. That is GGPO.
What you describe is what I said it was, effective and tough to deal with.
Yes, O. Sim is one of my mains.
I am at least as experienced as you are at ST. That should have been obvious from our last two discussions where I proved to be correct.
Dude watch the video… for Christ Sake… put 2 +2 togehter.
Sim stopped throwing the fireball and did the same thing KKY did in the other video. They made the same mistake.
At .23 & .24 He did 2 cr.stongs. He shouldn’t do them in the manner in which he was trying to apply them.
And for the 3rd time. I told you this is not the best example I have seen of it. You keep referencing this video like it is the holy grail.
You keep proclaiming: “He got out! He got out!See! See! He escaped!”
Yeah, I know, he got out… I watched it… I told you it wasn’t perfect. Sim made a mistake. If he didn’t make it, I going to make the contend and make the assumption he would have killed DJ in the corner.
You asked for some examples somewhere in some post back, and I found you one to at least give you some idea of what it looked like.
Are you taking about anticipation or reaction?.. If DJ does it on reaction solely, there is a high % get hit in the face with the fireball.
DJ’s Fires ball start up is too slow to do it solely on reaction, and never get hit. I would believe Chun Li’s fireball maybe, DJ, no way.
Again, I will ask, have you ever, actually tried this in real life versus a real player, with N.Sim?
Yes or No?
He is going to take a lot of block damage… Sim will easily get two Super bars doing this. Which he will obviously use, then leaving DJ open for a mix up after the super (a la Jason Cole)… Not to mention I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE PERSON EVER TRY YOUR COUNTER FOR AN ENTRIRE MATCH… As soon as you start looking and trying to react to a Fireball, you’ll eat one or two here or there due to start up, not to mention Sim can mix it up and get a throw some where:
I.E. Sim Fireballs… (DJ waits for the next fireball, per your ‘counter’) Sim then mk.slide> throw… Most players are not be able to react to the slide fast enough if they are waiting for another fireball… Yes, this is therory fighter, but I have used it in really life many times. Just giving an example.
The pressure of the fireballs it very difficult to deal with:
Again… I will ask have you every experienced this? Either being DJ or N.Sim?
You gave me an idealized highly improbable counter, based on the post I wrote to summarize a trap that you yourself have never used. If DJ, plays your game he leaves himself open to many other options with Dhalsim.
You brought up the fireballs Between O.Sim and N.Sim… I said “learn to play N.Sim. Then you will understand why countering every other fireball with DJ will not work.”
How does my statement about leaning to play N.Sim pertain to having the same fireball speed between the Sims?
If you can accuse me of not paying attention, I think it is fair to ask why you think the fireballs are relavent to my statement?
He cant do FB just on reaction to Sims FB, there is a high probability Sim’s FB hit DJ in his start up. Due to block stun, startup, and the hit boxes.
If you have ever played this zone you would have seen this happen many times.
Hey… I forgot, have you ever played this zone with N.Sim?
Well I certainly did. You are correct.
Let me retract and rephrase: “I will write a book on it.”
And, I still don’t care if you beleive me. :lovin:
I certainly did. B/c if Sim doesn’t get greedy and try to make more of the zone, which has happened in both the videos we watched, DJ cant get out. Sims counters everything DJ can do.
Watch the video again. Watch the last set. DJ blocked 7 Fireballs in a row. Why? everything else he tried in the Zone eailier in the match was countered, and everything he tried that round was countered. Looks like he was scared to me.
Then he finally jumped back, and was met with a far.RH.
We are talking about N.Sim. This whole trap is about N.Sim versus DJ… I asked you, if you have ever tried the trap [implying N.Sim, since after all 99% of everything I have been writing about is about N.Sim] It seems that you are not entirely paying attention either?
I did not ask you, Have you ever tried the trap with O.Sim?
We have had 3 discussions. And you were wrong about Ken… Only after I said a jab SRK was completely safe… Did you add "there are some set ups where it is safe.
IIRC (which I could be worng), someone asked if N.ken was safe after a DP, you worte that some fast moves can hit him. I wrote: no, he was entirely safe at the right distance, then you wrote: yes, there where set ups to be safe in some situations. I though you said there werent any set ups, so I wrote a post describing the frames data to prove my point. Then you asked to reread what you said, and then I saw your wrote some set-ups are safe then I left it as is.
Also, just because you made two points, doesn’t mean you know more. It might certainly make you feel like you know more, and you might actually know more. I don’t really care. I conceded that I was wrong when I was was actually wrong.
I will never be arrogant enough to think I can’t learn anything new or make a mistake.
Half of being smart is knowing what your dumb at, I misspoke on those other issues and admitted I was wrong.
Being wrong is part of these discussions. Everybody on the forums knows I can be wrong. I never claim to be 100% right.
Anyone can be wrong. I have a good habit of admitting when I am wrong. I have no problem with that.
The reason I am arguing this, is that I know I am not wrong.
Your looking to try to disprove that this zone isnt as good as I say it is. So for the record, I am saying it is godly, and it is unbeatable <if> executed flawlessly.
So, in real life, for all practical purposes, if a good Sim gets DJ in the corner with it, there is a very very high % that Sim is going to win.
If somehow this trap isn’t as good as I think it is, then it isnt. But, I must say I havent seen it fall yet, if porperly played.
If my post and discussion helps some Sim player beat a good DJ player. Then I added something possitive to the ST N.Sim SRK knowledge base.
As far as I can tell, it is more than you have added about any Sim match up.
If you dont like it, then you dont like it. If you dont agree with it then you dont agree with it. The trap is there, the trap works, the trap is very very good.
If you want to countinue to make more of it and say I am full bullshit, and spend time to pick apart every word I wirte about it, even though you have NEVER done it, then so be it.
I told you, I really don’t care anymore if you don’t beleive the trap is that good, I have already spend to much time dealing with you and this.
I think you are a knowledgable player, with a lot to add to the forums. :tup:
However, I feel you don’t have enough expereince with the trap I am discussing to properly try to agrue your point of view.
Play N.Sim for a couple of months, play 1000’s of matches versus diferent DJ players, try the zone out tons of times… and then we can talk.
You do realize there isn’t a single video of the trap working as you describe?
Maybe that should tell you something?
I made it perfectly clear I was talking about reaction.
By Sim’s slow yoga fire?
The most ridiculous part is how you have your theory Sim reacting to everything correctly by “getting good at watching the frames” and some other such nonsense yet you expect Deejay to eat a slow Yoga fire because of some geriatric reaction.
Nice double standard.
I already told you O.Sim is one of my mains. I bet you will go on some rant about why it needs to be N. Sim, but you would be wrong.
More on that later.
He will, probably about 25%. The point is to get out of the corner. I don’t know where you got the idea that doing nothing is preferable to doing something that can get you out of the corner.
Accepting damage to make your position in the game more favorable is a common tactic. This is no different.
Well Deejay isn’t going to counter for the entire match, only when in the corner and only until he charges a super.
Pay attention.
The moment you set yourself up to try and throw you put yourself in position for a counter throw. If somebody did that in a vid and got counter thrown you would be brushing it off as a “mistake”.
This discussion isn’t about Sim’s options if Deejay tries to charge a super, it’s about how to get out of the corner. Off course Sim can change gears and do something else, but that breaks the trap as you described and opens the door for Deejay to escape.
Throwing a max out isn’t exactly highly improbable.
Who said I never used such corner tactics?
And those other option break Sim’s trap giving Deejay a chance to escape the corner.
You see how this works now? Deejay does what he can to hedge the trap. Sim recognizes this and decides to apply different pressure, but that new pressure, while difficult to deal with, is better than dealing with the yoga fire pressure and hence gives Deejay a better chance of escaping.
Because your tactic of pressuring and punishing Deejay is no different between the two Sim’s.
Both Sim’s have the same yoga fire. They both have the same long range options. (standing fierce/couching fierce/etc)
The game changes in close, but we were not discussing in close combat, we are discussing what Deejay needs to do while in the corner.
Covered above.
Let me make this clear - Sim’s slow fireball is not going to hit Deejay on reaction unless that Deejay has terrible reaction speed.
Try it for yourself.
I have with O.Sim.
Since O. Sims options are the same at that range the application of the zone is the same.
I tend to do that alot.
Unless it’s Deejay who initiates the counters.
Looks to me like he was anticipating a counter poke by Sim, but Sim just continued to throw yoga fires.
Considering this is the same Deejay who previously escaped the corner twice I don’t think he was locked down more than he was reading his opponent wrong.
At the distance of throwing repeated yoga fires the trap is the same for both Sim’s. Deejay’s counter tactic of throwing a max out works the same against both Sim’s. It’s when Deejay jumps or gets close that the fight dynamics change, but I am not offering in close combat or jump in tactics.
As I have already pointed out it doesn’t matter.
Actually I wasn’t.
In order to be incorrect about something I need to make a claim that is wrong.
I never did, you just jumped on something for whatever reason even though it was correct.
Here’s the thing - I never said that Ken was never safe from retaliation, as that question was never asked.
All that was asked if it could be punished. I said it can (which is correct) but that fast attacks are needed to do it. (which is also correct)
Pretty obvious that I never claimed anything that was incorrect. Which is why I was confused by your post and hence pointed out that you must have misinterpreted what I wrote.
Which you probably did.
Thus far it appears that I do know more.
That’s good to hear. Perhaps we can make some progress on this topic now.
Or possibly your pride won’t let you accept that you completely exaggerated the effective level of your trap.
And thus you would be wrong.
If it was unbeatable we would have at least one single video of it as you describe.
We don’t, and probably never will.
Then where in the world are these vids of this trap played proper?
Actually what I have added is an objective view that hopefully will prevent Sim players from being over confident in that trap.
The way you present if a Sim player will believe that if they get Deejay in such a position the round is done.
At least now they can understand that the trap presents a great advantage and an effective pressure rather than believing it is over.
I have outlined my reasons. And I don’t think you are full of shit, just misguided.
Here’s the strange part, I never said it wasn’t good. In fact I said it was effective and tough to deal with.
You really need to pay attention better.
Thanks.
And here lies another problem, you are elitist against my point of view because I don’t play N. Sim much.
You don’t need to be an expert with a character to understand how zoning and traps work. Plus I actually do play Sim, just O. Sim. And as I have pointed out the trap is very similar with both characterss.