Should we reevaluate the tournament prize structure?

This is a discussion that I believe needs to be brought up after recent events in our competitive scene. I’m creating this simply because I see the potential of good that can come from this discussion, if handled properly.

First, I’d just like to quickly state some ground rules. I don’t want to see any flaming, disrespect or drama coming out of this thread. I have no problem with people disagreeing with each other and arguing their case, but with a delicate topic such as this it needs to be handled in a mature manner. This thread specifically will be heavily moderated at my request, and all non-relevant posts will be deleted without reason.

I’ve been noticing the trend that both players and tournament organizers alike have been frustrated with the current prize structure that our tournaments have been ran under. This structure of a 70/20/10 payout seems to have a fair share of weaknesses to it. Every player seems to understand that getting first or second place leads to both players splitting the money between themselves leaving no true interest in having a good grand finals match between the two. It’s difficult to blame the players for this because it’s a very logical solution to the problem of getting 70% of a cash prize compared to 20%.

If I am ever in this position, I too would split but for different reasons. I split with anyone I respect, am friends with or has taught me something about the game. For me the money is simply an extra part of tournaments. I simply wouldn’t have made it this far in the tournament without these people. Even though I’d split, I’m going to give my opponent a dead serious match up in grand finals because I want first place. Finals should be the most exciting matches of any tournament. Splitting is simply logical between these people you connect with in the scene.

However, once this split becomes agreed upon, the players and viewers are often left with a disappointing grand finals. Related is also the idea of not educating other players on how to improve when they could be seen as potential threats in the future. Even worse, there have been occurrences of players simply being paid to lose and accepting. Our tournaments and players are suffering because of financial politics.

I’m proposing that our current system is out dated and should be reevaluated to discourage lackluster matches between solid players and players forfeiting matches for pay. This isn’t to say that our top players should not be rewarded for their skill. I think every one of us should agree that our best players should be awarded some form of compensation for their skill, time and effort placed into refining their game. However, once money becomes a determining factor for tournament matches and outcomes, a line must be drawn.

You might say that because of our long history of doing this 70/20/10 prize structure that it should not change. Our history with this structure doesn’t necessarily mean this is the only way things can be done. Structures are made with the idea that once they are established by the people in power, they are hard to change. I feel that systems should be open to change along with our times.

There are plenty of different ways that our prize structure could be handled. I’d like to throw out some ideas of my own to get us start. Feel free to comment on which ones you feel are best or worst and why.

    1. A spread payout for top eight. First and second place would still receive most of the prize. If they decide to split then they will end up with possibly 50% of the prize instead of 90%. This might simply discourage splitting because there wouldn’t be enough of a prize for it to be feasible. It could also encourage our middle and high level players to reach for the top, rewarding them for their time and effort put into the game. I can also see how this might promote laziness in simply making top eight, but I believe the positives outweigh the negatives in this scenario.
    1. Top four receive 25%, each. However, rank is rewarded. With this method, we acknowledge that the top players want to split and because of them give them an even split. Money doesn’t become an issue because top four is all paid equally. There would have to be a rewards system in place for whoever gets a higher rank that would encourage players to care about winners, losers and grand finals matches. I’d like to hear other peoples ideas on what this reward system might be.
    1. Minimizing entry fees. I heard one player this weekend say that at one point, if the entry fee was higher than $10 no one would enter. If we wanted to regulate entry fees, we could potentially make $5 be the max entry fee of a tournament, along with a separate fee for the venue. By offering less of a reward, money loses its spot as the focus of entering a tournament. Again, splitting much not be worth it with a smaller reward than $15 or $20 tournaments. This could lead to less players due to a smaller reward, but I see how it could lead to a more pure competition.

Before anyone gets upset over idea 3, I’d just like to add that I’m not in love with any of these ideas in particular, but these are example of what can be done. If you believe any of these are good or bad ideas, please post your thoughts.

In closing, I’d like to officially start the discussion. I’d like to hear your thoughts on exactly why, no matter which side you’re on this is so everyone can speak openly about the topic and have their thoughts heard. No matter who you are, how good you are, you have a say in this and could end up shaping the future of how tournaments are handled. No one idea is going to be perfect but all our ideas together may lead to something we can all agree on. I hope that this discussion can bring our scene together and benefit us all.

I have been trying to think of a way to make your idea number two work, but finding some way to incentivize rank is difficult.

70-20-10 never seems to be a problem when you know people won’t split (or will) but yet have an intense grand finals that raises peoples brow’s, maybe only change it when certain people enter a tourney? not exactly sure this is a hard one.

i like the idea for #1 best. it does stride ppl to make farther then just ‘top 8’ to not only get a higher pay out but the prestige ranking as well. the idea of making tourneys like $5 , does attract an easier crowd to come and enter because its so low, but at the same time, the time put into it ( i.e : 6-7 hr tourney for $5/person with about 32 ) isnt gunna be as rewarding/ time efficient as say $10 tourney with 20 ppl and scratching off 2-3 hrs.

to be brutally honest, none of this will solve the main issue. the main issue is -

  1. will people benefit from splitting prizes
  2. will people benefit to throw matches

people play videogames for different reasons. some to make friends, some to gain fame, some to win, some to make money. regardless of the reason, there’s always something better.

unless ‘playing your heart out and winning every match’ can guarentee a benefit that each and every player requires, you will never solve the main causes.

some people split finals cause they just don’t want to bother with playing more matches. they’ve been at a tournament for 5-10 hours, and playing a gruesome match between two best people is extremely tiring. especially if you’ve played them many times in the past, it basically boils down to a few key moments and the finalist wouldn’t want to deal with it.

some people throw matches cause they want their friends to win. some people do cause they get paid to do so (like the korean SC shit). some people do cause they just don’t want to play. what can you do?

the only way to solve this is, don’t let them in the finals.

step your game up, and stop being fucking scrubs.

the end. 10/10

I’ve always hated the idea of splitting pot or throwing matches. I think it’s a good idea to address this and put it out in the open.

Why not use every system buy choose which one to use based on attendance? It doesn’t have to be 1 way set in stone.

Also, keep in mind that you can only hold the system to so much responsibility and that at the end its up to the players to have the integrity and competitive drive to fight for the top spot legitimately. All systems, no matter what they are, can be exploited.

i like jays option

should make tourney formats into pools. i.e: 24 ppl, 4 pools, 6 per pool. have everybody do a round robin in each pool and the two ppl who accumulate the most perspective points proceed into top 8. from there on, u do a random shuffle, with no seeding or w/e , and it turns into a normal bracket for top 8, kinda like world cup style.

ohh i like pools

Jay, I feel it’s true that someone will constantly be trying to exploit the system. My biggest problem is that if you do put in the work and become talented in the game, you should be rewarded just like anyone else would be. The easiest answer I came up with was trying to find a way to make splitting not financially worth it (spreading the winnings enough) or simply splitting from the very start. It’s difficult to do either though.

Also Long, I really love your idea. It lets players end up playing multiple people no matter their skill level yet is solid enough to make sure the best people get through. The only problem is it could possibly be time intensive. I really enjoyed pools at Super NCR.

with the idea of pools, its kinda like the UK invitational or EVO like. makes it feel a bit more serious then just any run of the mill tourney that we have at a ‘comic book shop’. helps promote awareness of position within a tournament as well, and allows players to participate in more matches even if they already had 2 loses rather den going 2 and out , they can still make it out of the pools depending on how many ppl are already in their pool. as for the idea of making it like world cup, consideration of seeding players after they get out of pools ( i.e. player 1 has 4 pts, player 2 has 3 pts, both make it out so player 1 should be seeded and play against a player who has 3 pts. ) this is only if u guys decide to use this format , best situated dependent on attendance like Jay said : O

And pavo, ur right it can be a little time intensive . but thats only if there are a large amount of competitors like say… 64 ppl?? haha but we havent had that many participate in a while… and too insure that it doesnt take up too much time, pool matches can be done by doing 2/3 rounds, 1 match. den top 8 can return to its normal format of double elimination

LB’s right. simplest solution to this is just prevent ‘them’ from getting into finals. lvl up ,get better and do the work yourself.
BUT its really hard to do sooooo when seeding is involved. and sum ppl just get sum free ass brackets and ride their way into winners finals and is guaranteed a spot at top 3. i’ve seen this many times and so has many others. should eliminate seeding and let the random draw roll

I like the idea of top 8 getting a cut. However, this must be proportionate to the amount of players in attendance. It makes no sense to reward top 8 in a 24 man bracket. Perhaps if we find like a way of figureing out a top 10% or something to that effect get payed.

Another thing - Payouts should be issued in check form not cash. This was an idea Masarap came up with. If you want to split the pot - sure, but you better be splitting with somebody you know and trust. This also makes both parties hungry to have their name on that particular check so that they don’t get fucked and are in control of said check. I will personally be using this for my Davis/Sac events in the future.

I also think that these entry fees are becoming way too crazy. Drom’s went from a 5 dollar tournament to 10 and now a 12 dollar tournament. I will be trying to figure a way to lower this cost as I don’t think there should be this much money spent on something we are supposed to be doing for fun and love of the game.

I will also not allow thrown matches at my events. If I find blatant bracket shenanigans I will just disqualify all parties involved no matter who you are.

I have talked to many people. People want change. People want the politics gone. People want the shady shenanigans to be policed. However, nobody wants to step up and be the first person to say something. I know everyone here wants there to be a movement and a progressive era in this shit so lets make this happen.

Thanks Pavo for taking the first step and throwing the shit out on the table. Lets get this discussion started.

I Really like longs pool idea, i mean everyone works for their own spot to the top then duke it out at the end, lowering chances of any thrown matches. That is if the right people are in the same pool to take each other out ;]

In future round robins we should make friends play against friends **EARLY **so that shenanigans can’t be pulled LATER. In all honesty this situation would have not been an issue if friends are forced to play each other in round 1. At that time person X would have still thought he had a chance to win and would have tried to beat Team SC instead of giving them a bye.

PREVENT
lets work on PREVENTION
This is Old so OLD Facepalm

*Lowering cost for tourneys also lowers attendees !
*Trying to control what people do with their REWARD is STUPID !
*Check Format isnt favorable in the SF Community, cause of so many bad check stories or.(I come to a 5 hour tourney and give $10 and win $400 but I have to get it in a check 2 weeks later Fuck no too many Unknown Variables:tdown: )

Just try to ask around from people who has been AROUND on whats the GOOD,BAD & UGLY

THXYOUTOO I hope you read what you post:tup:

If there are bad stories about tournament organizers issuing bad checks then don’t go to those organizers events. There are plenty of legit people in this scene that run events. Saying things won’t work without putting in the effort to legitimize this scene isn’t helping anyone. This shit isn’t so big that things are uncontrollable. We just need to step it up together.

I’m not really sure as to what you are trying to say with your reply to my post. Please elaborate.

yeah… idea of a check is a lil over board. putting friends against friends early isnt very reasonable… cuz dats being pretty bias in a public event. lol as far as i know, choosing a tourney format should be chosen considering the size of attendance. distributing top 8 prize should only be applicable when a tournament size reaches a certain amount, like sayyy 32 participants den its reasonable. if nething smaller, should try to run the ideas of pools for a change with no early seeding so the ‘obvious’ ppl wont be in the finals/ top 8 without battling other players of high calibur in their pool as well.