So now we have the use of that down any idea if it is more functional or if there are other ioh in ssf4?
Alright, just to recap and see if I understand all the general rose changes so far.
HP. Reflect into Soul Throw
HP. Reflect into Ultra 1 (cool!)
Soul Satellite might be far more useful than originally guessed
Faster Drill?
I also could have sworn in one of the videos that MP reflect seemed to be faster and active longer. The rose whiffed hitting DJ’s fireball but recovered enough to block, could be me.
Does that sound about right? I can’t wait for super.
(ok so i’m pretty late on replying to this)
but i completely disagree 100%. what’s wrong with asking for an anti air special to actually do what it’s obviously designed to do? i mean, as we’re all aware by now regular soul throw gets stuffed by everything. even bad rose players quickly learn not to bother grabbing even heavily telegraphed jump-ins. it wouldn’t break her, this change alone wouldn’t even make her mid-tier. it would just add some flavor to the character and give her opponents a reason not to try and trade or beat her c.hp. i mean, it’s not like you could FADC it or hit people on the ground with it as a (safe!) reversal like every shoto + cammy can with their already reliable AA moves.
But who says that’s what it was designed to do? In the Alphas it was used to end customs or catch techs. That’s what it was originally designed to do, not be an infallible anti air like you’re suggesting (a move that can’t trade + invincibility). Like I said before, EX soul throw would now not have a purpose and neither would AA normals…jumping at Rose or doing airborne moves against her would be pretty pointless too, lol.
It might not be too powerful, but it sure would be dumb. Nobody could approach her except from the ground, which is already pretty hard. Bison definitely wouldn’t be a hard match anymore. Fuerte wouldn’t have any options (you’ll either catch him or get yourself out from the invincibility). Nobody can cross you up.
But Soul Throw was originally designed to be a rather infallible anti-air, originally, purifyweirdsoul. In Street Fighter Alpha and Street Fighter Alpha 2 it could catch anything in the air, including Shoryukens, and was extremely fast.
The grab range was very large so that only select normals in the air could stop it. I believe Bison was one of the few that had a few options to stuff it if he knew it was coming. It had no invulnerability and did nothing to people on the ground, so that was meant to be its catch.
That version of Soul Throw was my favorite, but also led to not being used because it was so good that nobody would jump pointlessly at Rose.
EX Soul Throw, if it worked like Level 1 Aura Soul Throw in those games, would also be too powerful as that was the one that caught absolutely everything in the air on the way up without exceptions and had invincibility frames. In fact, you can catch Ken rolling on the ground!
In Street Fighter Alpha 3, they reduced the grab range by an extreme amount but allowed all versions of it to catch opponents in the air after an attack.
So this version that we have right now has a much longer start up time and a somewhat larger grab range than the Street Fighter Alpha 3 variant without being able to catch resets or juggle state.
In my opinion, they took the parts of every Soul Throw and made this one like a terrible Soul Throw salad with wilted lettuce.
Roogle, you are THE resident Rose historian.
I really don’t think soul throw is that bad, it just needs to stop being looked at like a dragon punch. Maybe a Ken dragon punch; in the sense that your best chance at landing it is at the peak or start of a person’s jump (save EX ST). But really, Rose builds enough meter with sparks where should could always have one stock ready to use EXACTLY like a dragon punch.
Normal soul throws aren’t infallible, but they really shouldn’t be either. One soul throw does nearly half of a raw super for damage. and damn, now we can land it after a focus crumple after HP reflect.
I suppose if soul throw was invincible at its peak of active frames, then that’d be pretty sweet, but not really necessary. I like room for mind games. “Am I going to grab you in the air? or c.HP you on your way down? If you think I’m going to grab you in the air, and bust out a normal move, are there enough active frames on it to counter my c.HP also?” Unless your name is Rufus, no. SF4 would be too dry if it had less mind games.
Why are we talking about jump-in counters though? Isn’t Illusion Spark the ultimate air counter? I’m being partially honest.
Yep, but why do you need an EX to effectively use a move? just erase ST from her moveset then :(. I really never use it, if your opponent do an early atk in the air, u’ll get stuffed, and anyway, u must react really fast.
Hey Luffy, Have you got your hands on the game yet? I played some on Friday and tried out some Rose. Her ultra 2 is excellent - I started it up in a fight vs a Cody, jumped a stone throw, landed a mk jump, then two orbs hit and then I did her c.lp, c.lk, c.mp XX lp spiral - 7 hits for a big chunk. That U2 is also an excellent anti air and comes out pretty instantly. I think you will like the changes if you have not had chance to play yet.
I haven’t seen any match vids of soul throw being used effectively as an anti air. I only really played A3, but still I have a decent knowledge of how A2 was played. Yeah, it could grab a whiffed/blocked dragon punch or something but who cares about that, you could just let them land and punish/CC or something. I don’t remember it beating jump-ins at all, if it did it would have been in a situation where you either predicted the jump and caught it early or they decided to do a really bad jump from neutral or something?
the A2 shoryuken wiki reads something like DON’T USE THIS MOVE AS ANTI AIR EVER
edit: lol I was close enough
"Soul Throw
Rose’s “throw” DP. Unlike a real Dragon Punch, no invincibility here. She will pretty much never use this move on its own. The only time Rose will be using her Soul Throw is to end her custom combos."
The speed of jumps in those games made it hard to react early with a special, normals however were more realistic and useful. So yeah find me a tournament match of somebody using soul throw like that.
it feels designed as an AA because in SFIV it cannot connect in any other circumstance. i mean, you can’t hit people on the ground with it. you can’t end combos with it. you can’t use it’s non-existent invulnerability frames to escape corners, etc etc. literally the only way it will do damage is as a preemptive anti-air. it’s hitbox is just so hilariously bad though. i mean, i’ve been stuffed by seth’s jumping mp (the air-to-air move that hits above his head!). it would be fine if soul throw had no invulnerability so you couldn’t use it to just grab meaty jumpins on wakeup, but it should at least have a buff hitbox so you can grab someone at the peak of their jump.
as for making AA normals obsolete, plenty of characters with working AA specials (shotos, boxer, fei, gief, rufus, guile if flash kick wasn’t garbage, etc.) have AA normals as well which are used situationally if the opponent comes in at the appropriate angle, you don’t have a charge, you don’t react in time, you want a reset, etc. i don’t think a working soul throw would necessarily make c.hp useless given it’s angle and startup, plus the fact that it’s already used in punish situations.
i guess one of my gripes in this game are moves that literally do not do anything helpful or fail at the task they seem designed for - ex.ochio, soul throw, demon flip parry, spin knuckle, etc.
Since the SF4 and Alpha engines are so different, the move couldn’t have its old purposes and use as a true anti air was probably thought to be too risky. They couldn’t just ditch the move either for fans, so it’s just there in SF. Now in SSF4, it has a use and I’m (we’re?) happy.
Like I said, the old Soul Throw had no invincibility on it, but it was still fast enough to prevent people from jumping in on Rose endlessly like they can do to us now in Street Fighter Alpha 3 or right now without EX meter.
It was fast enough that you could do it on reaction from when you see them leave the ground and you would most likely beat out whatever they did because of the large grab range.
The better option as anti-air would be crouching fierce into Level 1 Aura Soul Throw since that was like the best Soul Throw ever. The regular version, at least in my experience on GGPO, is good enough that it stops other people from pointlessly jumping around at different ranges, and that’s something that this one lacks.
Let me put it this way. Street Fighter Alpha 3 had the best version of Soul Throw from a combo standpoint because you could catch at any point, but the grab range was reduced to the point that you pretty much had to do that. Street Fighter Alpha 2 had the best version from a “used only as is” standpoint because it was extremely fast and could at least prevent / stop pointless jump-ins. Her crouching fierce and Level 1 Aura Soul Throw were far better for regular anti-air and I’m sure you can find videos of that being used in tourneys – I do it, too!
From what I can tell, it was designed to reward you for predicting a jump-in with a much larger window than what we have now. In that sense, it pretty much was an infallible anti-air, although that’s probably not what you meant. So, no, I don’t think the Alpha 2 version saw much use because she had so many other options that were better.
The true infallible version of Soul Throw was probably Level 1 Aura Soul Throw. I’m not sure anything could beat that, and you were allowed to catch from any state. If EX Soul Throw was like that, it would certainly help.
I’m definitely glad about the Soul Throw upgrade like you are, purifyweirdsoul, but I just wish they would decide what this move is all about. If fierce Reflect is still hard to land on opponents despite its low damage, this move still won’t see any real use.
I think that the best thing to do would have been to make the normal ST AA and Ex. AA and juggle catch.
Kinda how they did Tatsu the normal ones are just there for some combo enders while the ex. Hits hard can catch juggle states and setup for ultra and Super Arts in 3s(ryu/akuma and now maybe ken since i read air ex.tatsu cancles to U2). They let each have its own properties that gave them their place in ppls games/playstyle.
And Purify i think everyone in one way or another is welcome to the new ST combo but arent just contemp with that, my only issue with it is that it supposedly requires a FADC on all version which makes me think i wont be using it much unless the damage is very good.
I was told by a friend playing the game that you can combo fierce Reflect into Soul Throw in the corner without having to use FADC, so maybe it will help for corner pressure. Street Fighter Alpha 3 had this as well.
Well under two weeks to go! Damn i am excited to see what Rose can do in super!
I only really use her EX ST will people try to jump in late on wake up.
I have this bad habit of trying to be psychic about landing it though, but that usually just leaves me with a kick in my face.
Regular soul throw sucks. The damage bump and juggle catching is nice and all but it really could use at least 1 invul frame :lol:
I’m going to display some theory fighter. Does anyone know if the opponent is in a juggle state after a super combo. Because they are, then it could be possible to do an attack afterward like Ryu’s super to ultra. Rose could possibly soul throw, ultra 1, and maybe ultra 2 after a super. That would be a dream come true :wgrin:
ps - Please donate to Chris Hu and his family. He is a really nice person. If anyone has met him or listened to his commentary or on a podcast please help out even if it’s only a little.
Yeah Dave, it depends if her U1 got modified to catch people in juggle state, or it’s only with a HP Reflect.
If it can really catch pple in juggle state… that means she can do f hk u1, super u1!
They really should give her super juggle properties. Rose already has so much frame advantage after landing it (or even on block), and stays in close proximity, it’s a tease right now that it doesn’t juggle.
Sometimes I waste U1 after landing super just because it seems so attainable. I wouldn’t even mind the scaling, dammit.