SFXT at Final Round XVI POOL ASSIGNMENTS ARE NOW UP!

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter x Tekken
101

No. I have no way of knowing the types of gems you use (besides the colors) nor their conditions of activation. Even if I did know them, to be able to strategize around that is too much.

If I am going to use 2 meters to do a combo that brings in one one of my characters that is about to die to finish you off, and then you live because of gems, that is not fair. You could easily make a comeback just for having a random gem completely unrelated to your skill.

Don’t know why people think that is fair to be forced to play with such an unknown and unnecessary factor. It has been too often that I should have won a match only to have the opponent randomly appear with 2 more meters, or to randomly survive my final attack.

Being able to calculate what you have to do to kill someone is very important in fighting games. To have that randomly change because of gems is not fair. Gems allow crazy things to occur in matches that should never happen. Fundamentals should be what wins a match, NOT random factor gems.

Now if two people agree to having that disadvantage and to both use gems, then they have agreed to that. I should not be forced to agree to play against that disadvantage.

Also I understand how gems can be fun, and online there is nothing at stake losing to players with gems. But in a competitive scene where it should be the player’s skill that wins, gems should not be the default.

102

You shouldn’t bring in a character that’s about to die to begin with though. And even if you consider making that decision, you could look at their remaining gems, see they have a yellow gem left and realize “probably won’t die unless I reset, so I probably shouldn’t risk bringing in this half-dead character”.

Isn’t planning a skill as well? I’m protecting myself against one last mixup in this case if I have that particular defense gem on, or planning to give myself x amount of meter for a particular setup.

I’m not saying you’re wrong per say. Just thinking this out from a different perspective.

103

Yes planning is a skill. But why should I be forced to make a plan involving guesses based on a random factor? I could see a yellow gem and now I shouldn’t do my combo that should normally kill you when I have confirmed my hit? So what should I do? How much does that yellow gem affect my combos? Do I do a sweep and then my combo? A poke and then my combo?

Also suppose that I somehow managed to perfect a plan that goes around the defense gems. How could I possibly plan for an opponent randomly getting two meters? You really can’t.

Why shouldn’t I bring in a character that’s about die if I should be guaranteed to win because of my combo that is supposed to kill you? In SSF4 should I do a combo that would put me in a risky position that would make me lose IF that combo is guaranteed to kill? Of course you should do it, because you should be guaranteed the round.

There is a reason why the Smash community has banned the use of items in tournament play. Although the logic here isn’t the same, there are some factors that have some similarities. You could know what all the items do and what items would appear, but you just don’t know the conditions to which they would appear that would grant that person the advantage. It’s too random. Can you plan for it? Yes to some degree. Should it be a factor in determining the skills of the player in a competitive setting? No.

Even though items are fun, you should not be FORCED to play with that random factor in a tournament setting. Same with gems.

Also the reason why I am arguing this is because I already have thought of different perspectives.

104

Stock gems at least, are not strong enough to make the better player loose in a best of 3 IMO. Also You can look at the numbers of the gems that the other player is choosing, and open a page like http://robofobe.com/sfxtgems/ to check what the gems are. Gems is a strategy part of the game, so I guess you will just have to accept it, or leave it as you are planning to do. I just don’t feel like the gems are a random aspect of the game at all, when you have access to the gems yourself and can look at the opponent picking them, find out what they do if you want, or just react to them in game as Roknin is saying.

105

All things you’d take into account, yes. If it’s at that point and you see there’s a defense gem or a health gem left, you take that into consideration before you do your combo, I’d think.

That’s fair enough, I can agree with that.

That’s a different game, with a different mentality. In SSF4, if your character is low on health you don’t have the option of keeping in a healthier character. You’re going to go for your best damage. In SFxT, you do, so why put yourself in a position where there’s even a chance your weaker character is left in a bad position? I do get what you are saying in the sense that yes, if said combo will kill and I know it, I should go for it. But again, wouldn’t you look at their gems and take a second to say “you know what? I shouldn’t do that because it may not kill”? It’s still the same risk/reward management isn’t it?

Items in Smash are very different from gems in the sense that neither side knows when/what/where they’re going to appear,and there is no control on them by either player whatsoever. They’re worse than stage hazards in that regard, because at least the stage hazards give some slight indication (and even then stage hazards can be insanely random). There’s no control whatsoever over the game spawning a bomb on your head or a heart container in your opponent’s face.

Gems are controlled by one side, and the opponent can at least see what type of gem it is at all times. I don’t see how these two things are really related.

Fair enough. We’ll probably just have to agree to disagree, but I figured I’d bring it up for discussion sake, as hey I could be completely wrong in my thinking. :slight_smile:

106

Good reasoning. I have been discussing these points with simsim in the chat. Should there be anything else that I would like to contribute then I shall post it.

I will never accept gems as the default.

107

ill have to ask

sorry to hear that but I hope you will reconsider

108

ok its default gems only guys,

@alexlkd, @WantonX , @Roknin

so alex default gems won’t break anything since they are the basic kind of gems

109

I would like to add my thoughts on defult gems only, here as well (Tweeted Mr Wizard bout this)

Gems grant different buffs and they have different activation requirements. Different characters benefit from different buffs and a very important aspect of gems, is how you chose gems that have activation requirements that fit your character. Some characters rely heavily on special moves in their bnb’s and gameplay (Jack for example). Naturally these characters will land more special moves than, let’s say Dhalsim, who rely a lot on zoning with normals. It is not fair to only allow the pre set gems, because by doing this, you are only allowing certain activation requirements, which will benefit some characters more than others.

That being said, I would rather have these pre sets than no gems at all, as you will have a better chance of covering your character’s weaknesses by using a pre set gem set up of the category you need, even if some characters will do this more effectively than other’s and therefor creating an additional balance issue.

110

I’m glad that the post that SimSim has just made addresses what I was about to. Thus Gems should NOT be allowed, and I will still refuse to be forced to play in a tournament setting with it.

111

It seriously makes my brain hurt when there are people still bitching about gems almost a year after the game has been out. Everyone who stuck with the game didn’t mind using Gems and for the most part, we found it to enhance the overall experience of the game. We allowed Gems in our Bi-Weeklies and everything worked out fine: in fact, probably better than it would have with no Gems at all.

Write down your numbers and just go with the flow. If you’re complaining about them being akin to items in Smash, then you’re not doing it right. Sorry.

112

I dont see the problem with gems either. Most of the cast can break 300+ in damage with their bnbs so damage gems pretty much benefits all characters. Meter gems benefits all the characters. The only gem that really impacts the game to a degree is defense gems. There is no random factor in how much damage you deal or take, if you came in being a scrub you will come out being a scrub. And no amount of power,defense,speed or meter gems replaces the actual skill in learning how to play your character, they just enhance the play style said characters are good at.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

113

would it better If asked shinblanka that BOTH players must agree to not use gems if that is their preference before the set begins?

114

Personally? Nah. Stick to the default sets. I think that IS the best meeting ground. It’s easy on the TOs since they don’t have to worry about having DLC on every console (tedious), easier on the players who want gems because at least they’re there in some capacity, and for players that don’t like what gems tend to introduce when all are allowed, they now only have these 5 sets to really prepare for which is pretty easy to anticipate.

115

I prefer to see gems in the tournament scene honestly. The game has been out for damn near a year and people are still refusing to use gems. I’m sorry but if you’ve played online (which most of us have) you should be pretty used to fighting players who use them. As for me, I’m not going to stop using gems just because tournies don’t allow them. I just simply won’t do tournies that ban them, that simple.

116

Unfortunately that wouldn’t change anything since I would still be forced to play against all players who would want to use gems.

@ Songi and Roknin: If no gems were the default, then you COULD still use gems against players who agree to it. Would you really not go to a tournament to fight everyone using gems even though you would be fighting me gemless? You have played me gemless before. It was quite fair.

Furthermore in terms of balancing gems, default gems is more unbalanced then being able to choose gems for the same reason that SimSim specified earlier.

Also for those people who aren’t considering the future of fighting games. By accepting gems you are telling the fighting game companies that having these type of features in fighting games is good for tournaments. Capcom has already stated that they believe that the future of fighting games will come from customizability, so in their next game they may have even more ways to customize which can make future tournaments more unbalanced. This is not a good thing especially for companies such as Capcom who have made many poor balance decisions.

117

Couple of things.

I don’t think you necessarily meant to address all of that to me, as I never said I wouldn’t attend a tourney that had or didn’t have gems. :razzy: I really don’t care either way and leave it up to the organizer as to how he or she would like to run the tournament in that regard. Considering I just played locally with no gems over the weekend and had some amazingly fun sets, I’m not worried either way.

That said, the same problem arises: rulesets need to be uniform and not full of gentlemen’s agreements all over the place. If the tourney is gemless, then so be it, everyone should go gemless. If the tourney has gems allowed, then so be it - have your loadout ready or just use the preset loadouts.

As far as the future of fighting games… I don’t mind the customization aspect at all, and think it is a good thing; hell, I really like the gem system, it’s part of why I enjoy the game. I DO think Capcom handled it poorly in numerous ways, in particular charging for it (and as such I decided to not support it financially until very recently, where I bought exactly two sets I wanted to try out… and haven’t used much since) which was quite frankly a very stupid move, making the selection far too large, and the selection process could definitely stand to be streamlined.

I do want to get clarification though before this moves forward, as I may have misunderstood something, sooooo I now summon the power of Shadow Ace!

Do you mean default gems as in the gems that come with the game? OR, default gems as in the 5 presets that are set with 1.08? I’m fine either way, though for brevity and ease on the TO’s backs, it’s probably best to go with the 5 default sets. That’s what I originally thought you meant, so I want to make sure I’ve got that correct.

I really don’t care what set it is, I’ll prepare for each occasion. I have my gem numbers in my notes on my 4s if I need them as I use the same set up for all my teams basically. The basic presets work fine as well as I’d just run meter on point and power on anchor. Yadda yadda yadda you get my drift. :-p

Once we get the final word on that I’ll likely leave things be as I don’t want to make the entire rest of the thread about gems and lose track of the event itself. I’m hoping I can afford to make it, as plans may change (personal life matter I can’t speak on), but I’m looking to confirm in the next couple weeks.

118

I’m good with default gems or no gems, just as long as we’re on the same page. DLC gems could make a mess for the TOs. DLC characters are a must though. Hopefully someone beats roknin before he gets to me. I have some kind of complex about not being able to beat him consistently or at all.

119

Strangely enough I do better locally, somehow much less nervous than when I play online. Although if I somehow make it on stage or on stream I’m not sure how I’ll do lol.

120

nah rok, we can’t have dat nervous ish going on son

stand strong!!!

this tournament may hit 200 people so doubt and nerves should not even be a factor, I was thinking about getting some noise reduction headphones myself