holy shit. i went and took a shower, the entire time super confused about this post and why this guy has such an issue with moves being -2 on block and then it hit me. i said to myself “he must be a laura player butthurt over his lp shoulder not being a 100% free pressure tool!”
and i come back and check and i’m right. how did i know? am i psychic? why are laura players so fucking salty?
Remember when we could talk about fighting games without everyone acting like the biggest shitlords ever? Gg mods, you’re doing great.
I see that warning wasn’t enough. Enjoy not being able to post in the forums.
I kind of get what you’re saying but at the same time. I don’t. Having a 5 frame normal is an advantage if you have a situation where you can place yourself at +2 on block, or whatever, as whatever they press will get stuffed, but the same is true for most buttons the opponent presses at that point in time.
So if you’re character doesn’t have a 5 frame medium, they can use a 3 frame jab, if it counter hits, they can get a counter hit combo into medium, for very similar, if not more damage to those using the 5 frame medium.
You also neglect an option that people have in this situation, which is the reversal. You say in the second paragraph that the only option is grab or block, but they can also throw out a reversal which will beat both the medium attack or throw options. Obviously this is high risk, but sometimes you have to make a read. You describe the 5 frame medium as an option select that answers everything, but it stops being as threatening if your opponent is aware of your reversal option. If he’s smart, he will try and bait this out, making the situation a sort of rock paper scissors scenario (I say sort of because it’s actually much more complicated), where your block beats their medium but loses to their throw, your normals lose to their throw or normals, but give you frame advantage on opponent block, your reversal beats their medium or throw, but loses to their block, your throw beats their block, but loses to their normals, and your neutral jump loses to everything but gives you a punish on command throws, and usually frame advantage on regular throws.
Ultimately, if you’re at frame disadvantage in SFV you’re now in a much trickier situation than you were in IV, but I don’t think (due to things like counterhit combos) it makes a huge difference if you have a medium with specifically 5 frame startup. Even without that, there would be work arounds… for instance Rashid’s standing LP is +3 on block, so even if his mediums had 6 frames of startup (they have 5) he would still have a frametrap that beats anything but reversal with invulnerability frames.
I think your problem more regards how the game works, how frametraps work… and you’re right, it’s a much trickier situation to be in in V than it was in IV, but in IV, crouch teching arguably made this situation pretty mindless, placing even more emphasis on execution, and away from strategy. It’s been clear from the outset that Capcom have been trying to change that with V.
I guess a TL:DR version of my post would be that ultimately Capcom don’t expect you to have 5 frame reaction time, they expect the player with momentum to be at an advantage. You DO have options in the situation you describe, but they are not as favourable as the player with frame advantage. If this however is a problem with your game, then you need to be thinking about what is putting you in these situations to begin with. If you’re letting your opponent jump at you, for instance, you are giving these +2 situations to them for free, and of course, you are going to have a very hard time as a result.
I can’t do basic bnbs, I’d prolly mop you nigga xD
The first thing that came to mind was that Zangief and Mika’s command grabs have 5 frame startup.
For example:
This post makes absolutely no sense. That 5 framer being thrown out at +2 and beating everything is nowhere near close to what an option select is, it’s beating everything because you’re at frame advantage. Oh, if you’re at frame disadvantage and try to do anything you get hit, yet if you sit there and block every time they start mixing up throw? That’s the basis of pressure. Are you really upset about there being no surefire way out of this situation? The correct answer is to try to read the opponent correctly and defend accordingly. I’m actually mind blown that this seems to be a problem, especially considering you probably lost the neutral game if the opponent is close enough to hit you with their +2 normal and still threaten throw after.
Let’s go. Steam is Raz0rw0rk.
I just came in to say that my dick is longer than all of op’s and all ya’lls post combined…
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B)
That was still shorter to read than the OP.
Dat’s bcuz itz limp son.
If you see it as ‘the end of your time to press buttons’ a good opponent will throw you every time, though. You have to make a read sometimes.
But yeah it doesn’t need to be a 5 frame normal at all, but the argument is that if people get used to teching late then they can block up to 5 frames and tech on 5 and then they will block your LP, or tech your throw. If the normal is 5 frames (equal to throw startup) then it’s entirely ambiguous.
Blocking in that scenario is like an option select, if they hold back for 4 frames, then tech on 5th, they will block anything but a 5 frame normal, and tech the throw. If you use a 5 frame move however it will hit if they tech. You can delay 3 frame normals to have the same effect though, plus they have a tech window rather than having to throw on frame 5… so even with 5 frame normals they can block up to 5 frames then tech on 6 or 7 and still tech a throw. But then that timing is pretty difficult and dependent on your opponents frame advantage which varies depending on the normal pressed.
I feel like this game has a disproportionate # of characters with no reversal option at all actually in this situation, and there is no other “hard read” universal mechanic such as Parry in 3 or Focus in 4
This +2 into 5 frame medium trap seems to turn into a no risk/high reward situation for the player on offense in those cases…the option of doing something traditionally safer in other FGs such as a safe block string off the first attack instead of opting for a frame trap is never better in this game
The risk for the defensive player to try and regain their turn is comparatively immensely high and their only options end up being, just block until they get pushed back or press a button mid frame trap to try and catch the offensive player being greedy with a tick throw or something, which is extremely high risk for the defensive player in this game.
On offense against a no reversal character, frame trap seems to lose to the same options that a safe block string would
I think you’re misunderstanding the end of the turn. If the player pressuring has a no risk/high reward single normal move he can do that the defender can’t respond to, it’s still the offensive player’s turn. At most, the frame trap is 1-2 more normals you have to block.
It’s not free, infinite block strings. It’s 1-2 normals.
This isn’t a new concept. Just be glad fireballs aren’t as strong in this game as they were in Super Turbo, I’d love to see the salt threads on SRK about fireballs if that was the case.
It’s a tough thing for me to get used to honestly, I sort of lament that it’s “no risk” as opposed to “low risk”, that’s all
Game is awesome. Stop trying so hard to find something to be annoyed about and just grind it out. If Laura is the problem, find someone else to use. Simple.
I think what people mean by a more defensive and kind of boring game is that the agressor’s job while attacking is just to mix up memorized blockstrings and hope his opponent falls for the trap and eats the damage while on the defending side your best bet is to just hold downback and look for a gap to escape.
Compare that to lets say gouki’s offense in 3s where you have a kara throw and throws are faster, you actually have 2 overheads the universal one leading to super and good damage if spaced right.
Normals, walkspeeds and dashes are faster leading to a more fluid faster gameplay and ofcourse you can just walk up to your scared opponent, bait a normal, parry and punish like a boss.
On the flip side the defender also has good options to counter attack or escape forcing the attacker to be creative and unpredictable with his offense.
And thats not even mentioning the air game which is almost non existent in sf5.
To beat the 5-frame medium meaty or meaty throw mix up you’re supposed to late tech. Late tech is in turn beaten by late attacks or shimmy. But late attacks and shimmy are both beaten by pressing any button (resulting in a combo for you), back dashing, and jumping. Late attacks made within throw range are further beaten by wake up grab.
This is actually nothing new at all, 3-frame jabs and shorts with good range are the real problems.
Reading through your post I think that I see a bit of what you mean about there being a bit of a “sweet spot” where 5 frame normals have a very effective bit of usage. My main argument against your worry about this being a problem would be the rather effective balance that SFV seems to have so far between characters. Now I fully get that this is very early so it’s going to take six months to a year to really start to shake out what characters are in what tiers. But from what I’ve seen and on some early tournament results I see plenty of characters without five frame medium attacks (correct me if I’m wrong but this would include characters like Nash, M. Bison, and Dhalsim) having plenty of success.
If what you say here is true:
And that the advantage really can’t be understated then over the next year or so we should see a very steady set of results that should push all the five frame medium character up the tier list and all the characters who lack one getting pushed down. Some tech for characters really does take years to unlock or perfect, but if there really is something as simple using five frame medium attacks off of +2 or -2 situations to create a significant advantage then the pros who are trying to win are going to start flocking to those characters in a quickness. I do actually agree with your general point about how these moves can be very advantageous in specific scenarios, but that ignores all the balance involved with those characters trying to get into those situations and their opponents trying to keep them out of those situations. Capcom is aware of the advantages of faster lights and mediums and seems to have done a solid job with balancing out each character gameplay kit to be able to effectively compete.
