SFV should be called "Street Fighter 5-Frames"

[Dime]

What I’m not understanding about the op is:

How are 5 frame normals to good when done at -2?

At -2 your 5 frame medium normal will get beaten out by a 3,4,5,6 frame light or medium from your opponent because of speed and lose to a 7 frame heavy because of priority…

So I’m not seeing how 5 frame mediums are running shit at that point.

And if they are only running shit at +2… Who cares? They have huge pushback and have no throw threat if blocked.

[Spectre_General]

They aren’t an OS since they’re only dealing with one situation, which is trying to counterpoke. Now if they somehow got punished or thrown for blocking a 5-frame medium (without you manually walking and throwing after it’s blocked), then it would be an OS.

Yeah I know, they’re frame traps, but they don’t only beat counterpokes, they also beat throws, command throws, and movement including neutral jumps and backdashes (and I know backdashes are useless in this game against anything but throws.) You literally really don’t have any option but to block, the somewhat silly part though is, the sheer knowledge that this exists is what unlocks the character who has the 5f medium’s ability to actually do something else (like briefly walk forward and throw, or if they can hit outright from where they’re spaced, command throw) and the sheer amount of how unsafe doing anything other than blocking is means the other option is almost guaranteed to work unless we can somehow hone ridiculous reaction time, or just hail Mary (now, some players do seem to have that kind of reaction time, but I really don’t think it’s most of them, and I know it ain’t me.) I guess the simplest way to rephrase this is “for some characters, it’s entirely too easy to put your opponent in the blender.”

And yeah, a player should get some reward for an offense that successfully puts their opponent in “the grinder” but it’s also possible for players to put themselves in this situation by getting a move that’s -2 on block blocked at point blank range. Laura’s qcf+lp does exactly this, for example. Sometimes it’s really frustrating to take damage, or “lose your turn” to use that terminology because you failed to hit confirm into a move that’s great on hit but sucky on block off a 3 frame jab that was actually the mathematically proper way to keep your advantage after the -1 frame move your opponent just did on your block. And this entire situation just flip-flopped in like half a second or less. When these things happen the game feels chaotic and uncontrollable, and they can happen very frequently during the duration of even just one round.

[Spectre_General]

i dodge rocks on the highway all the time fuck outta here

Word, can I get a ride to Final Round?

[Spectre_General]

What I’m not understanding about the op is:

How are 5 frame normals to good when done at -2?

At -2 your 5 frame medium normal will get beaten out by a 3,4,5,6 frame light or medium from your opponent because of speed and lose to a 7 frame heavy because of priority…

So I’m not seeing how 5 frame mediums are running shit at that point.

I think you’re misreading what I’m saying. 5 frame normals aren’t good when the character doing the 5 frame normal is at -2, they’re good when the opponent did something that left them at -2. If I attack you, and you block and I’m at -2 now, that’s the same situation as if you attack me, and I block, and you’re at +2. Basically I’m talking about a situation where, because of the priority system, after someone blocks someone, the person who’s at a disadvantage could do a 3 frame light that loses to a 5 frame medium. In this situation, that 3 frame light is the fastest possible non-super, non-reversal in the game, and it’s far from the only thing getting shut down by a 5 frame medium, making 5 frame mediums an incredibly good idea. It’s also important because very few normals (except usually fierces and roundhouses) are ever worse than -2 on block, meaning this exact situation is likely to occur many times per round, and as players we have to figure out how to handle that.

And if they are only running shit at +2… Who cares? They have huge pushback and have no throw threat if blocked.

The threat comes form the fact that if you’re +2 and have that move, I know you’ll probably do it, and because I know you can hit a button that counterhits everything I can do I’m not looking to hit a button that stops your forward movement. Should you chose to walk/dash forward and throw/command throw, you’re more likely to get away with it cause your normals are basically unreactable in those situations. (I have to quickly go "did he hit a button? Ok, what are my options? Did he hit THAT button? Oh shit, I better do absolutely nothing.) This is a reaction time issue, and yes, it’s character/situation specific, I think we’re at the point where we all need to start exploring what options are actually good in situations like this one.

Another thing about throw threat, some footsies can be thrown at further range if the person “whiff punishes” with a throw, I’ve had it happen, but anybody doing it probably didn’t do it on purpose and tried to put a throw on the screen when it was an otherwise terrible idea and just got lucky. Probably because if you’re coming from older SF games, you’ve been conditioned to think throws are a better idea than they are in SFV.

[Dime]

What I’m not understanding about the op is:

How are 5 frame normals to good when done at -2?

At -2 your 5 frame medium normal will get beaten out by a 3,4,5,6 frame light or medium from your opponent because of speed and lose to a 7 frame heavy because of priority…

So I’m not seeing how 5 frame mediums are running shit at that point.

I think you’re misreading what I’m saying. 5 frame normals aren’t good when the character doing the 5 frame normal is at -2, they’re good when the opponent did something that left them at -2. If I attack you, and you block and I’m at -2 now, that’s the same situation as if you attack me, and I block, and you’re at +2. Basically I’m talking about a situation where, because of the priority system, after someone blocks someone, the person who’s at a disadvantage could do a 3 frame light that loses to a 5 frame medium. In this situation, that 3 frame light is the fastest possible non-super, non-reversal in the game, and it’s far from the only thing getting shut down by a 5 frame medium, making 5 frame mediums an incredibly good idea. It’s also important because very few normals (except usually fierces and roundhouses) are ever worse than -2 on block, meaning this exact situation is likely to occur many times per round, and as players we have to figure out how to handle that.

And if they are only running shit at +2… Who cares? They have huge pushback and have no throw threat if blocked.

The threat comes form the fact that if you’re +2 and have that move, I know you’ll probably do it, and because I know you can hit a button that counterhits everything I can do I’m not looking to hit a button that stops your forward movement. Should you chose to walk/dash forward and throw/command throw, you’re more likely to get away with it cause your normals are basically unreactable in those situations. (I have to quickly go "did he hit a button? Ok, what are my options? Did he hit THAT button? Oh shit, I better do absolutely nothing.) This is a reaction time issue, and yes, it’s character/situation specific, I think we’re at the point where we all need to start exploring what options are actually good in situations like this one.

Another thing about throw threat, some footsies can be thrown at further range if the person “whiff punishes” with a throw, I’ve had it happen, but anybody doing it probably didn’t do it on purpose and tried to put a throw on the screen when it was an otherwise terrible idea and just got lucky. Probably because if you’re coming from older SF games, you’ve been conditioned to think throws are a better idea than they are in SFV.

Yes, it’s called “having a turn” and the game is based around these situations and how to deal with them and stay away from them and how to trick people into giving up their turn or take their turn away from them.

In the example provided where you are at +2 a jab will still work and it will work better than a medium since a 3 frame jab right there can be mistimed… And still have a window to win where no other move could have. The 5 frame medium however has to be timed perfectly (which in this game means hitting a pretty easy 3 frame window, but I digress, it still easy to not hit the timing perfect when using the advantage that the other person gave you)

And at the end of the day it’s just a mixup situation. A mixup situation that favors the advantaged player… But is by no means guaranteed for the advantaged player.

Perhaps using Laura has skewed your perspective since she has to be point blank when this happens so much, but as a person that picked up rashid and learned his bnbs and stuff and frame traps etc etc etc over the course of 4 days… I agree that the whole -2 thing isn’t great for him and perhaps Laura either, but that has more to do with them than the game.

They should probably be pushed out a bit more on block to skew the situation a bit, or only be -1 to a POSSIBLE +0

But it certainly doesn’t make the game " 5frame move fighter 5"

Chun as an example has no problems with these situations and indeed isn’t in them all that much in the first place. As I’m sure many other characters aren’t as well.

[traxus]

Chun isn’t in that situation often because that’s where her opponent is lol.

[Pertho]

This thread needs a better TL;DR, so here it goes:

SF4 had an issue with jabs being too good. They would be used to beat get people off you but also to start combos. SF5 fixed this by adding the priority system for attacks. The issue now becomes that when pressuring somebody, at any point you put yourself at -2, the fastest normal you could throw is a jab. This means that your opponent only has to keep in mind moves at -2 to break your offense. This happens because you can’t dissuade a slower button press by stuffing it with a jab because of the priority system. You are also unable to throw him out of the slower button press with a throw because they have 5 frame start up.

Which means that all situations in which you play your opponent at -2, the best option at all time is for your opponent to use a 5 frame normal to stuff your jab and throw attempt and very is likely to beat a button press from the slower hard normals. This means that characters which have 5 frame normals for their Medium normals essentially have one button option for stopping pressure after their opponent puts themselves in a slightly negative situation.

Yeah its a long TL;DR, just deal.

[pootnannies]

This thread needs a better TL;DR, so here it goes:

SF4 had an issue with jabs being too good. They would be used to beat get people off you but also to start combos. SF5 fixed this by adding the priority system for attacks. The issue now becomes that when pressuring somebody, at any point you put yourself at -2, the fastest normal you could throw is a jab. This means that your opponent only has to keep in mind moves at -2 to break your offense. This happens because you can’t dissuade a slower button press by stuffing it with a jab because of the priority system. You are also unable to throw him out of the slower button press with a throw because they have 5 frame start up.

Which means that all situations in which you play your opponent at -2, the best option at all time is for your opponent to use a 5 frame normal to stuff your jab and throw attempt and very is likely to beat a button press from the slower hard normals. This means that characters which have 5 frame normals for their Medium normals essentially have one button option for stopping pressure after their opponent puts themselves in a slightly negative situation.

Yeah its a long TL;DR, just deal.

if that’s his case then it makes some sense but you have to be aware of what happens if that were to change. throw range is very small so if you were to change the frame data of mediums then the aggressor has very little to pressure you with, therefore the designers would have to make changes the other way around to make up for that: faster walk speeds, further throw ranges and maybe less pushback on block. the point is the game would start to play more and more like already existing SF games but with the V system and would have less of it’s own feel and identity.

you can always take a risk with an invincible reversal (if you have one) if you think the opponent will continue pressure off a medium with a jab or anything else. both players will take a greater risk but of course the risk is greater for the defender as it should be.

every SF game so far has some weird bullshit in it and although annoying, not game breaking. i don’t see this as game breaking so i don’t think it will end up being such a big deal.

[sdstig]

every SF game so far has some weird bullshit in it and although annoying, not game breaking. i don’t see this as game breaking so i don’t think it will end up being such a big deal.

I think the question isn’t if it’s game breaking (because it’s not IMO), but whether it makes the game boring, unentertaining, or whatever you want to call it. People have no problem playing broken games. Almost all old fighting games are pretty broken, yet so many people still love them and sometimes even prefer them to newer ones. Just look at 3S and the versions of 4 before Ultra. 3S has Chun and Yun. AE2012 had the ridiculous vortex and unblockables. And even Ultra has plenty of stupid stuff.

I’m not stating this as fact but a potential “problem” this could cause is the game being much more defensive or even flowchart-y. I personally don’t mind a game being very defensive but some people do. I don’t know. Just throwing ideas to the wind here.

[Pertho]

if that’s his case then it makes some sense but you have to be aware of what happens if that were to change. throw range is very small so if you were to change the frame data of mediums then the aggressor has very little to pressure you with, therefore the designers would have to make changes the other way around to make up for that: faster walk speeds, further throw ranges and maybe less pushback on block. the point is the game would start to play more and more like already existing SF games but with the V system and would have less of it’s own feel and identity.

you can always take a risk with an invincible reversal (if you have one) if you think the opponent will continue pressure off a medium with a jab or anything else. both players will take a greater risk but of course the risk is greater for the defender as it should be.

every SF game so far has some weird bullshit in it and although annoying, not game breaking. i don’t see this as game breaking so i don’t think it will end up being such a big deal.

The issue is that this will be a common enough occurrence over the course of a round/match that it seems this interaction is solved and done so in a way that rewards people with 5 frame normals.

At least its not jabs?

[DevilJin_01]

And people say my posts are long. I’m not reading that. Nope.

even though you already said it for the rest of us it must be said again. this post is waaay too long. even DevilJin is like “tl;dr”.

This WAS too much for me LOL. At least put in some meaningful bolds.

The only bolds he used were for like strange parts of his argument that you can’t really picture in your head to get a jist. He bolded the word IF by itself LOL.

if that’s his case then it makes some sense but you have to be aware of what happens if that were to change. throw range is very small so if you were to change the frame data of mediums then the aggressor has very little to pressure you with, therefore the designers would have to make changes the other way around to make up for that: faster walk speeds, further throw ranges and maybe less pushback on block. the point is the game would start to play more and more like already existing SF games but with the V system and would have less of it’s own feel and identity.

you can always take a risk with an invincible reversal (if you have one) if you think the opponent will continue pressure off a medium with a jab or anything else. both players will take a greater risk but of course the risk is greater for the defender as it should be.

every SF game so far has some weird bullshit in it and although annoying, not game breaking. i don’t see this as game breaking so i don’t think it will end up being such a big deal.

The issue is that this will be a common enough occurrence over the course of a round/match that it seems this interaction is solved and done so in a way that rewards people with 5 frame normals.

At least its not jabs?

Yeah I’m just generally not seeing the big issue here. If you are at negative 2 that’s your problem. Be at minus 1, 0, +1, 2 or 3 instead. This makes it sound like Chun being at negative 2 after EX legs is a big problem for her. It does make sense that something that leads to a free knockdown and meaty situation for no execution requires you to burn your bar and be in a situation where you are forced to block. Makes sense to me.

Unless we want to change the system so Chun can freely press jab at the entire cast after a blocked EX legs. That would go well.

This seems very character specific overall at best. I hear people talking about how Laura’s main pressure tool is negative 2 so this is a big issue for her apparently, but that’s all I can really see. In theory if you land some of these negative 2 moves at max range you should be able to get around the issue.

[Dime]

I don’t like the negative 2 thing as a mechanic across the cast… But other than that… I have no problem with it. If you want to stop the opponent from flowcharting a st.mp in their +2 situations… Use your invincible move or CA.

Problem solved.

[Easilyn]

I think people who complained about 1 frame stuff being gone can’t react or do things in 10 frames or less.

[DevilJin_01]

I don’t like the negative 2 thing as a mechanic across the cast… But other than that… I have no problem with it. If you want to stop the opponent from flowcharting a st.mp in their +2 situations… Use your invincible move or CA.

Problem solved.

Even if you don’t have an invincible move or CA ready I would think the pushback on normals would eventually force some type of a reset for this situation any way.

[Quark]

I think people who complained about 1 frame stuff being gone can’t react or do things in 10 frames or less.

Being able to input 1 frame links has nothing to do with reaction time. It’s a matter of timing and muscle memory. Almost anybody should be able to nail 1 frame links with extensive practice, while very few people are capable of reacting in 10 frames (167 ms) or less.

[Tonyyy]

welcome to a real fighting game where meaty attacks actually exist and are useful. If you have an issue with 5 frame normals stuffing out a bunch of stuff like back dashes, jump outs etc then basically all I can say is…

git gud.

[holyrobot]

I don’t understand how this ultimately results in a more defensive game. If anything, it gives more options and benefit to the aggressor, which makes it more offensive. I can see how the player attacked needs to block more for longer, but at most it’s 1-2 more normals blocked before you’re pushed out of range and neutral game resets. Then you have to control space and try to get some offense going.

Things which make a game more defensive: invincible back dash frames, safe invincible reversals (srk+fadc backdash, which got removed specifically because it was too good for defense), crouch tech.

There certainly are more micro moments in this game as opposed to usf4, which I enjoy more than how sf4 played with vortex oki setups and jobber combos, but that’s just my preference. I think many usf4 players that enjoyed it for what it was won’t like sf5 or will take adjusting to the new playstyle.

[Cestus]

At least that’s what I call it. Oh and be forewarned, if you don’t want to read a long post, just leave and don’t make a comment. “This post is too long” there I said it, your job’s done you can go away now.

Anyway, ever since this game came out and frame data became available I’ve noticed something about this game that I’ve been pointing out to people, some online, some IRL and pretty much just anywhere anybody will listen. Characters with 5 frame medium normals (standing or crouching) generally have an advantage in SFV that can’t be understated.

Now let me back up before I explain that. And for the record I’m trying to make this post about facts more so than opinions, so try to keep that in mind.

We all knew that SFV wasn’t going to be USFIV. Some people like this about it, some don’t, personally I don’t care.
We all saw that Combofiend said they didn’t want one frame links and option selects in the game. (Even though there are option selects in the game, this early we can probably agree they aren’t as impactful as they were in USFIV where their knowledge and implication was more or less necessary for high level play.)

One of the complaints some had about USFIV is that you got too much damage from the combos that resulted from connecting with a light normal, because if you had the one-frame link timing down, light normals could lead to huge combos with many characters. People didn’t feel like they should lose 40+% of their life because they did a move that was -3 on block. I’m not here to debate whether this was a good thing or a bad thing, just stating it as a fact cause it’s important to my discussion about SFV.

It’s pretty obvious that this was removed from SFV. Most characters get comparatively very little damage from combos resulting from light normals in SFV, and on top of that they require pretty tight (3 frame I believe) links/reaction time. Yeah it’s easier than a one frame link, but there were techniques to help with those like plinking/pianoing and eventually it was no longer about “reacting” but simple muscle memory once you’d successfully punished that -3 move with the first hit of the combo. Part of what I’m getting at is, in reality, humans don’t have 2 frame reaction time. They don’t even have 5 or 6. Now there we go, I KNOW I just said the first thing in this post that someone will disagree with. “I get 1 frame links all the time” or “I used to crouch tech throws in USFIV on the regular, and that was only 3/4 frames.” The point I’m making is, if you think you have 3 frame reaction time, try to react to something unexpected outside of a video game in .05 seconds. You’re driving down the highway at 60mph and the truck in front of you kicks up a medium-sized rock right at you, are you swerving out of the way, or do you have a fresh crack in your windshield? Cause that’s an example of something that happens in “3 frames” worth of time more or less. Let’s not bring up the fact that by a pure physics standpoint this is a bad example because of vehicle size, obstructions in the other lane, and the gradient at which the wheel is turned etc. etc. if it were possible to dodge that rock in that amount of time, everyone still gets hit by that rock, unless maybe they were playing “rock dodge simulator” and knew that there was a strong possibility of it happening or that it was literally an inevitability. The ability to correctly anticipate a situation you expect to happen factors into your “reaction time.”

In fighting games we’re never truly reacting to what we’re seeing and processing with our eyes, we’re reacting to the situation. Let’s say in USFIV your opponent scored a hard knockdown on you and then waited briefly and did what you know to be a safe jump, you see all of this and think “they’re probably going to try to throw me because it’s the fastest move they have and we’ll be at point blank range, I should crouch tech.” And then you do, and then you brag about having a 3 frame reaction time. No, you started reacting the instant you got hard knocked-down, that’s more like a 40~50 frame reaction time with a 3 frame execution window in which you’re expected to actually do something, but your brain was “reacting” to the situation the whole time. The same could be said if you’re the one knocking your opponent down, you already knew that was a possibility, you already had a plan for what to do if it happened. Let’s use another example; red parries in 3s. It’s been awhile but IIRC red parries are parries that are performed within 2 or fewer frames of the move being parried and you’re basically only ever doing them to interrupt blockstrings. Despite this, in my opinion, they’re not very hard and there are some situations in which red parries should basically always happen. A blocked Ken SA3 or Q SA1, the last hit of Dudley’s machine gun blow, the s.lp or the s.lk in Yun’s “divekick to Gen-Ei-Jin” setup which is divekick>s.lp>s.lk>s.mp>(shoulder or gen ei jin activate) the last hit of Yang’s s.mp>s.hp>b.hp target combo, or the last hit of Necro’s hook. Red parrying in these situations is not that difficult for seasoned 3s players, even though you only have a 2 frame “execution window” you had the entire length of the blockstring up until that point to “prepare” to hit that 2 frame window. It’s not visibly seeing and reacting to the move, it’s reacting to the situation, and in every case I’ve shown, you have in reality way way more than 2 frames to do that.

So the point I’m trying to make is this. We all know, or should know by now that there’s essentially two fundamental components of a fighting game; the mechanical side such as execution and hit confirming, and the mindgames/rock-paper-scissors side such as correctly anticipating your opponent’s next move or “training” them to do a certain thing. Because of the, for lack of a better term “priority” system in SFV, where mediums crush lights if they trade, and heavys crush mediums and lights if they trade, putting moves on the screen in “neutral” scenarios, as footsies mainly, often scores counter hits, which buys you a few more precious frames to hit confirm with, or perhaps allows a combo that is otherwise impossible without counter hit. Being able to take advantage of this situation is what separates good players from not-so-good players in SFV, and usually, there’s only about 5 frames in which to take an action before your “window” is up and we’re right back to a completely chaotic situation, by which I mean a neutral situation at basically point blank range when everyone wants to touch buttons ASAP. A lot of us have probably heard Arturo or some other pro player say something like “SFV is about figuring out when your turn is.” Well, the window for your “turn” is about 5 frames long, basically.

PSA: I’m a not-so-good player at SFV, but that doesn’t mean I’m not right about this. What I see here, and I think it might be problematic, is that characters with 5 frame mediums can more or less avoid the neutral game mixup blender, and even the footsie game if they simply follow up every thing they put on the screen that leaves them +2 or more on block, or their opponent -2 or more when blocked with a 5 frame medium. “Yeah, Spectre, that’s called a frame trap” I’m sure you’ll say, yeah it is, but because of the way this game works, it’s also a one button option select. Option selects function by “automatically choosing the thing that correctly stuffs the option your opponent chose.” Well, in SFV if you have a character with a 5 frame medium, if executed with perfect timing, that button always stuffs everything your opponent can do as long as you’re within that window of them being -2 or worse, or you being +2 or greater. It stuffs neutral jumps, backdashes, 3 frame normals (the fastest non-super-non reversal moves in the game) and throws. If your opponent does anything other than block, they always get hit by the medium, or worse, counter hit, potentially leading to huge damage because you have more time to hit confirm off of mediums than lights. This maybe wouldn’t be so bad if -2 and +2 weren’t both really common frames for moves to leave you at. The reason for this is that if more moves were -3, that’d be punishable by jabs creating a USFIV situation, and if more were +3 or better, well since there’s no real “get off me” move in SFV like parries or focus attacks, the frame traps would be way too legit. There’s V-reversal, but compared to the two I just listed, it’s kinda lacking because unlike the two options I just mentioned, it requires meter (which you might not have,) can’t net guaranteed damage, is character specific as to whether it’s better used offensively, and can even be beaten by an option select throw in rare cases (which might become more prevalent since that’s just been discovered.)

The other problem this “5 frame normal” setup causes is that once a defending player knows about this, the threat of that move allows the advantaged player to get away with things that are otherwise within the parameters of SFV maybe not that great of an idea. Most jabs and shorts are 3 or 4 frames in this game meaning they beat throws clean. But if my opponent knows that I know that their 5 frame normal beats my jab because of the frame trap or frame disadvantage, they can just choose to throw me, (or worse, command throw me) because if I jab or if I throw, I lose to their medium and get comboed for huge damage. What this means is, if my opponent is properly using mixup and not just always choosing the frame-perfect one button OS that there’s literally no way out of (which forces me to take chip damage too, lets not forget,) Capcom expects me to react to a 5 frame move (by which I mean either the medium, or a throw, they’re both 5 frames.) And yeah I know “you can V-reversal.” Sure, IF I have the meter, but doing a V-reversal might be bad for the reasons I mentioned above, and they can also possibly bait it and block/interrupt it. I see people doing V-reversals a lot, but in my mind the jury’s still out on how much they swing the game in your favor, if at all. You might tell me you could potentially also do a move that has armor (if you have one) or an EX move that has armor (if you can afford to risk it and use the meter) keep in mind though, things like FANG’s 2-hit 5 frame s.mk, or Chun in V-trigger can potentially still blow this up. So those are your options really. Keep blocking, take chip damage and hope to survive the mixup, or use meter (EX armor/V-reversal/super) if you have it, because doing literally anything else will get you hit and probably lose you the round. Note, I’m not saying that the fact that this is how the game works is a bad thing per se, but I do think this is in fact how the game works. Most matches are decided in this oft-occurring “magic” 5 frame window that exists between -2 and +2 frames, where proper (i.e guaranteed) punishment doesn’t exist, but some characters have a massive advantage because they happen to have a normal that stuffs virtually every option their opponent has, and there’s no reason for them not to do it 100% of the time, unless they actually feel like doing mixup just to be scary. Also, if you happen to be fighting against an opponent whose fastest normal is a 4 frame move, then 6 frame mediums serve this same purpose.

And yes, I know I never talked about spacing off of blockstrings, which is super super important, but that comes from character specific matchup knowledge, and/or the opponent not realizing their move will whiff (which they should realize, and therefore not do,) and typically speaking, you don’t have too many more than 5 frames to whiff punish anyway (remember we’re talking specifically about 5 frame medium attacks.) Making sure you don’t whiff your blockstring/counter hit OS does matter for the sake of keeping pressure, but it doesn’t really affect the 5-frame window for reactions, especially if the opponent knows that move will blow them up if you don’t whiff, why would they touch a button in that scenario? I feel like “spacing your blockstrings correctly, and whiff punishing when your opponent fails to do this” is a thing that’s not really going to come into play in a match with less than highly skilled players. If you’re the kind of player who’s keen to this and takes advantage of it, good for you, you’re leveling up, most players aren’t there yet and lots probably never will be.

Then we have the situation for “what do I do when the window is between -1 and +1 frames?” Nothing is guaranteed here, everything is chaotic, but your best bet is probably your fastest move, which is probably a 3 frame jab, that you’ll have no more than 3 frames to hit confirm off of if you want more damage. If you don’t confirm though, you’ll instantly reset the scenario you were literally just in, you’ll be at point blank range with around 3 to 5 frames to make a decision. Also, lights cancel into lights, so if you’re mashing you’ll get a useless 2 hit combo, probably push yourself too far away to even threaten with your 5 frame move (assuming you have one) and never get the confirm. A lot of players will tell you “just block” but that’s a stylistic choice in this situation tbh, and if you don’t have a 5 frame reaction time, probably a bad idea, what if your opponent decides to throw you? 3 frame moves do stuff things within this tiny window (and 3 frame moves also stuff 6 or higher frame moves in situations when the person doing the jab is -2 and the spacing is right) so hitting jab or short is not always a bad idea, contrary to the opinion of people who play characters that get huge damage off of 5 frame mediums and tell you you should never touch a button unless you intend to hit confirm into huge damage off of it, by the way it also helps if that button is +2 on block thereby resetting the situation every time and eliminating the need to think about your options. Yeah I’m talking to you, Karin players. B)

Here’s the one place where I’ll tell you that what I’m saying is an opinion: I feel it’s problematic when some characters have this built in, and others don’t. We maybe didn’t realize it at the time, but the fact that SF had 3 frame throws before now was the great equalizer, if someone was point blank before now, throwing was your safest high percentage option for both players, ironically resulting in a tech most of the time. Throws were so good it basically made point blank mixup more difficult, more risky, and less likely to happen. Now that they’re 5 frames, it’s trouble because 5 frames is still too fast to physically react to, but it loses to more than just throws/crouch techs (which no longer exist.) You might be able to sneak one in as a mixup meaning throws are still a “good idea,” but 5 frames also happens to be the sweet spot for the highest percentage chance of getting blown the fuck up if you guess wrong, or have less than frame perfect timing, meaning throws are actually a terrible idea, and the sad thing is, most of us still do them out of reflexive habit. And correct me if I’m wrong here, but if a 5 frame throw trades with a 5 frame normal, the throw loses (at least that’s what I’ve noticed in training mode.)

I don’t have a problem with mixup, but I kinda have a problem with that mixup having to exist within only a 3~5 frame window most of the time because 5 frame moves cover so many options, and I kinda have a problem with that scenario being repeated 20 or so times per match, The fact is, most new players, average players, and older players like myself who have a diminishing reaction time due to aging, can’t pull off the combined 2 factored mindgames and execution required to outperform their opponents in a window that small. What this means is, SFV has a much larger gap between high level play, and not high level play than pretty much any other Street Fighter to date (except maybe SF2.) That could wind up being a very bad thing for the prolonged life of the game, but then again the online F2P “new character every X months” marketing strategy might keep less than great players playing the game too, it’s too early to tell.

Now if you think I’m wrong about this, I’m willing to admit that, but I want to see the proof. Why do I say this? Because if you can prove me wrong, and show it to us, then we can all learn how to work around what is honestly a very difficult and frustrating part of this game. If I’m wrong, and there’s options that people have to escape this type of thing that I’ve missed or gotten wrong, we all become better players. This thread wasn’t made to complain about the game, it was made to discuss a facet of the game that I think many players either don’t understand and get frustrated by because they view it as “random” or a facet that frustrates players like myself who honestly believe they know exactly what’s going on, and simply can’t find a practical solution other than “evolve superhuman reaction time” or “just guess.” (Personally I think even though both of those might work, neither of those are “practical” solutions.) I know I’m not a threat to win a tournament, and never will be, I’m not that dunning-kruger retarded, but one thing that I am is a veteran of the FGC who’s played fighting games for over 12 years at a tournament level. I feel like I kinda know what I’m talking about and when I’ve explained “Street Fighter 5-Frames” to some people, including some players who are vastly superior to me, they’ve agreed with me. But some (and in many cases it’s newer players who probably are dunning-kruger retarded) tell me I’m a complete idiot who has no idea what I’m talking about. Well, I’d like to find out, so, if you feel so obliged, prove me wrong, but be aware, I’m here for discussion and learning, I will discuss any videos or responses to this thread that you submit, and I expect that discussion to be civil. I want to actually figure this out communally, and I will report your post if all you do is come in here and say “lol u dumb.”

USFIV was all about “block and punish” and I honestly think that in SFV that’s a less correct way to play (not completely wrong, but less correct.) Street Fighter 5-Frames is about rapidly forcing situations in which your opponent doesn’t have the reaction time to properly stop to the thing you’re going to do, in part thanks to the fact that your character might very well have an option that single-handedly stuffs everything they can possibly do. It’s up to us to decide if this is 1) true, and 2) if true, acceptable enough for us to want to keep playing the game. I’d like to think I and others have what it takes to rise to this level, but I also feel like the bar has been set higher than ever, and I’m starting to wonder if I or even most players are even capable of reaching it.

I guess if you want a TL;DR it’s this: Capcom expects us to have a 5 frame or quicker reaction time because there are 5 frame moves in the game that in common situations function like option selects by stuffing everything your opponent can do, and are never not a bad idea in those situations, this allows throw mixup to be a real thing, but throws are also 5 frames so either “true” reaction time or “pure guessing” is forced onto the player being pressured. I’m not sure a true 5 frame reaction time is something that most humans, even the ones who play games competitively, can reliably achieve and repeatedly demonstrate, but I’ll give it a shot I guess. If you disagree, feel free to read my post and show me how I’m wrong. If you can show me I’m wrong, then we’ll all learn from it and that’s a good thing. If you think I’m wrong and can’t prove it, just keep your mouth shut for your own sake please, we should all be focused on learning this particular game’s mechanics and nuances, and I think what I’ve identified here is a really important one.

[PVL_93_RU]

At least that’s what I call it. Oh and be forewarned, if you don’t want to read a long post, just leave and don’t make a comment. “This post is too long” there I said it, your job’s done you can go away now.

Anyway, ever since this game came out and frame data became available I’ve noticed something about this game that I’ve been pointing out to people, some online, some IRL and pretty much just anywhere anybody will listen. Characters with 5 frame medium normals (standing or crouching) generally have an advantage in SFV that can’t be understated.

Now let me back up before I explain that. And for the record I’m trying to make this post about facts more so than opinions, so try to keep that in mind.

We all knew that SFV wasn’t going to be USFIV. Some people like this about it, some don’t, personally I don’t care.
We all saw that Combofiend said they didn’t want one frame links and option selects in the game. (Even though there are option selects in the game, this early we can probably agree they aren’t as impactful as they were in USFIV where their knowledge and implication was more or less necessary for high level play.)

One of the complaints some had about USFIV is that you got too much damage from the combos that resulted from connecting with a light normal, because if you had the one-frame link timing down, light normals could lead to huge combos with many characters. People didn’t feel like they should lose 40+% of their life because they did a move that was -3 on block. I’m not here to debate whether this was a good thing or a bad thing, just stating it as a fact cause it’s important to my discussion about SFV.

It’s pretty obvious that this was removed from SFV. Most characters get comparatively very little damage from combos resulting from light normals in SFV, and on top of that they require pretty tight (3 frame I believe) links/reaction time. Yeah it’s easier than a one frame link, but there were techniques to help with those like plinking/pianoing and eventually it was no longer about “reacting” but simple muscle memory once you’d successfully punished that -3 move with the first hit of the combo. Part of what I’m getting at is, in reality, humans don’t have 2 frame reaction time. They don’t even have 5 or 6. Now there we go, I KNOW I just said the first thing in this post that someone will disagree with. “I get 1 frame links all the time” or “I used to crouch tech throws in USFIV on the regular, and that was only 3/4 frames.” The point I’m making is, if you think you have 3 frame reaction time, try to react to something unexpected outside of a video game in .05 seconds. You’re driving down the highway at 60mph and the truck in front of you kicks up a medium-sized rock right at you, are you swerving out of the way, or do you have a fresh crack in your windshield? Cause that’s an example of something that happens in “3 frames” worth of time more or less. Let’s not bring up the fact that by a pure physics standpoint this is a bad example because of vehicle size, obstructions in the other lane, and the gradient at which the wheel is turned etc. etc. if it were possible to dodge that rock in that amount of time, everyone still gets hit by that rock, unless maybe they were playing “rock dodge simulator” and knew that there was a strong possibility of it happening or that it was literally an inevitability. The ability to correctly anticipate a situation you expect to happen factors into your “reaction time.”

In fighting games we’re never truly reacting to what we’re seeing and processing with our eyes, we’re reacting to the situation. Let’s say in USFIV your opponent scored a hard knockdown on you and then waited briefly and did what you know to be a safe jump, you see all of this and think “they’re probably going to try to throw me because it’s the fastest move they have and we’ll be at point blank range, I should crouch tech.” And then you do, and then you brag about having a 3 frame reaction time. No, you started reacting the instant you got hard knocked-down, that’s more like a 40~50 frame reaction time with a 3 frame execution window in which you’re expected to actually do something, but your brain was “reacting” to the situation the whole time. The same could be said if you’re the one knocking your opponent down, you already knew that was a possibility, you already had a plan for what to do if it happened. Let’s use another example; red parries in 3s. It’s been awhile but IIRC red parries are parries that are performed within 2 or fewer frames of the move being parried and you’re basically only ever doing them to interrupt blockstrings. Despite this, in my opinion, they’re not very hard and there are some situations in which red parries should basically always happen. A blocked Ken SA3 or Q SA1, the last hit of Dudley’s machine gun blow, the s.lp or the s.lk in Yun’s “divekick to Gen-Ei-Jin” setup which is divekick>s.lp>s.lk>s.mp>(shoulder or gen ei jin activate) the last hit of Yang’s s.mp>s.hp>b.hp target combo, or the last hit of Necro’s hook. Red parrying in these situations is not that difficult for seasoned 3s players, even though you only have a 2 frame “execution window” you had the entire length of the blockstring up until that point to “prepare” to hit that 2 frame window. It’s not visibly seeing and reacting to the move, it’s reacting to the situation, and in every case I’ve shown, you have in reality way way more than 2 frames to do that.

So the point I’m trying to make is this. We all know, or should know by now that there’s essentially two fundamental components of a fighting game; the mechanical side such as execution and hit confirming, and the mindgames/rock-paper-scissors side such as correctly anticipating your opponent’s next move or “training” them to do a certain thing. Because of the, for lack of a better term “priority” system in SFV, where mediums crush lights if they trade, and heavys crush mediums and lights if they trade, putting moves on the screen in “neutral” scenarios, as footsies mainly, often scores counter hits, which buys you a few more precious frames to hit confirm with, or perhaps allows a combo that is otherwise impossible without counter hit. Being able to take advantage of this situation is what separates good players from not-so-good players in SFV, and usually, there’s only about 5 frames in which to take an action before your “window” is up and we’re right back to a completely chaotic situation, by which I mean a neutral situation at basically point blank range when everyone wants to touch buttons ASAP. A lot of us have probably heard Arturo or some other pro player say something like “SFV is about figuring out when your turn is.” Well, the window for your “turn” is about 5 frames long, basically.

PSA: I’m a not-so-good player at SFV, but that doesn’t mean I’m not right about this. What I see here, and I think it might be problematic, is that characters with 5 frame mediums can more or less avoid the neutral game mixup blender, and even the footsie game if they simply follow up every thing they put on the screen that leaves them +2 or more on block, or their opponent -2 or more when blocked with a 5 frame medium. “Yeah, Spectre, that’s called a frame trap” I’m sure you’ll say, yeah it is, but because of the way this game works, it’s also a one button option select. Option selects function by “automatically choosing the thing that correctly stuffs the option your opponent chose.” Well, in SFV if you have a character with a 5 frame medium, if executed with perfect timing, that button always stuffs everything your opponent can do as long as you’re within that window of them being -2 or worse, or you being +2 or greater. It stuffs neutral jumps, backdashes, 3 frame normals (the fastest non-super-non reversal moves in the game) and throws. If your opponent does anything other than block, they always get hit by the medium, or worse, counter hit, potentially leading to huge damage because you have more time to hit confirm off of mediums than lights. This maybe wouldn’t be so bad if -2 and +2 weren’t both really common frames for moves to leave you at. The reason for this is that if more moves were -3, that’d be punishable by jabs creating a USFIV situation, and if more were +3 or better, well since there’s no real “get off me” move in SFV like parries or focus attacks, the frame traps would be way too legit. There’s V-reversal, but compared to the two I just listed, it’s kinda lacking because unlike the two options I just mentioned, it requires meter (which you might not have,) can’t net guaranteed damage, is character specific as to whether it’s better used offensively, and can even be beaten by an option select throw in rare cases (which might become more prevalent since that’s just been discovered.)

The other problem this “5 frame normal” setup causes is that once a defending player knows about this, the threat of that move allows the advantaged player to get away with things that are otherwise within the parameters of SFV maybe not that great of an idea. Most jabs and shorts are 3 or 4 frames in this game meaning they beat throws clean. But if my opponent knows that I know that their 5 frame normal beats my jab because of the frame trap or frame disadvantage, they can just choose to throw me, (or worse, command throw me) because if I jab or if I throw, I lose to their medium and get comboed for huge damage. What this means is, if my opponent is properly using mixup and not just always choosing the frame-perfect one button OS that there’s literally no way out of (which forces me to take chip damage too, lets not forget,) Capcom expects me to react to a 5 frame move (by which I mean either the medium, or a throw, they’re both 5 frames.) And yeah I know “you can V-reversal.” Sure, IF I have the meter, but doing a V-reversal might be bad for the reasons I mentioned above, and they can also possibly bait it and block/interrupt it. I see people doing V-reversals a lot, but in my mind the jury’s still out on how much they swing the game in your favor, if at all. You might tell me you could potentially also do a move that has armor (if you have one) or an EX move that has armor (if you can afford to risk it and use the meter) keep in mind though, things like FANG’s 2-hit 5 frame s.mk, or Chun in V-trigger can potentially still blow this up. So those are your options really. Keep blocking, take chip damage and hope to survive the mixup, or use meter (EX armor/V-reversal/super) if you have it, because doing literally anything else will get you hit and probably lose you the round. Note, I’m not saying that the fact that this is how the game works is a bad thing per se, but I do think this is in fact how the game works. Most matches are decided in this oft-occurring “magic” 5 frame window that exists between -2 and +2 frames, where proper (i.e guaranteed) punishment doesn’t exist, but some characters have a massive advantage because they happen to have a normal that stuffs virtually every option their opponent has, and there’s no reason for them not to do it 100% of the time, unless they actually feel like doing mixup just to be scary. Also, if you happen to be fighting against an opponent whose fastest normal is a 4 frame move, then 6 frame mediums serve this same purpose.

And yes, I know I never talked about spacing off of blockstrings, which is super super important, but that comes from character specific matchup knowledge, and/or the opponent not realizing their move will whiff (which they should realize, and therefore not do,) and typically speaking, you don’t have too many more than 5 frames to whiff punish anyway (remember we’re talking specifically about 5 frame medium attacks.) Making sure you don’t whiff your blockstring/counter hit OS does matter for the sake of keeping pressure, but it doesn’t really affect the 5-frame window for reactions, especially if the opponent knows that move will blow them up if you don’t whiff, why would they touch a button in that scenario? I feel like “spacing your blockstrings correctly, and whiff punishing when your opponent fails to do this” is a thing that’s not really going to come into play in a match with less than highly skilled players. If you’re the kind of player who’s keen to this and takes advantage of it, good for you, you’re leveling up, most players aren’t there yet and lots probably never will be.

Then we have the situation for “what do I do when the window is between -1 and +1 frames?” Nothing is guaranteed here, everything is chaotic, but your best bet is probably your fastest move, which is probably a 3 frame jab, that you’ll have no more than 3 frames to hit confirm off of if you want more damage. If you don’t confirm though, you’ll instantly reset the scenario you were literally just in, you’ll be at point blank range with around 3 to 5 frames to make a decision. Also, lights cancel into lights, so if you’re mashing you’ll get a useless 2 hit combo, probably push yourself too far away to even threaten with your 5 frame move (assuming you have one) and never get the confirm. A lot of players will tell you “just block” but that’s a stylistic choice in this situation tbh, and if you don’t have a 5 frame reaction time, probably a bad idea, what if your opponent decides to throw you? 3 frame moves do stuff things within this tiny window (and 3 frame moves also stuff 6 or higher frame moves in situations when the person doing the jab is -2 and the spacing is right) so hitting jab or short is not always a bad idea, contrary to the opinion of people who play characters that get huge damage off of 5 frame mediums and tell you you should never touch a button unless you intend to hit confirm into huge damage off of it, by the way it also helps if that button is +2 on block thereby resetting the situation every time and eliminating the need to think about your options. Yeah I’m talking to you, Karin players. B)

Here’s the one place where I’ll tell you that what I’m saying is an opinion: I feel it’s problematic when some characters have this built in, and others don’t. We maybe didn’t realize it at the time, but the fact that SF had 3 frame throws before now was the great equalizer, if someone was point blank before now, throwing was your safest high percentage option for both players, ironically resulting in a tech most of the time. Throws were so good it basically made point blank mixup more difficult, more risky, and less likely to happen. Now that they’re 5 frames, it’s trouble because 5 frames is still too fast to physically react to, but it loses to more than just throws/crouch techs (which no longer exist.) You might be able to sneak one in as a mixup meaning throws are still a “good idea,” but 5 frames also happens to be the sweet spot for the highest percentage chance of getting blown the fuck up if you guess wrong, or have less than frame perfect timing, meaning throws are actually a terrible idea, and the sad thing is, most of us still do them out of reflexive habit. And correct me if I’m wrong here, but if a 5 frame throw trades with a 5 frame normal, the throw loses (at least that’s what I’ve noticed in training mode.)

I don’t have a problem with mixup, but I kinda have a problem with that mixup having to exist within only a 3~5 frame window most of the time because 5 frame moves cover so many options, and I kinda have a problem with that scenario being repeated 20 or so times per match, The fact is, most new players, average players, and older players like myself who have a diminishing reaction time due to aging, can’t pull off the combined 2 factored mindgames and execution required to outperform their opponents in a window that small. What this means is, SFV has a much larger gap between high level play, and not high level play than pretty much any other Street Fighter to date (except maybe SF2.) That could wind up being a very bad thing for the prolonged life of the game, but then again the online F2P “new character every X months” marketing strategy might keep less than great players playing the game too, it’s too early to tell.

Now if you think I’m wrong about this, I’m willing to admit that, but I want to see the proof. Why do I say this? Because if you can prove me wrong, and show it to us, then we can all learn how to work around what is honestly a very difficult and frustrating part of this game. If I’m wrong, and there’s options that people have to escape this type of thing that I’ve missed or gotten wrong, we all become better players. This thread wasn’t made to complain about the game, it was made to discuss a facet of the game that I think many players either don’t understand and get frustrated by because they view it as “random” or a facet that frustrates players like myself who honestly believe they know exactly what’s going on, and simply can’t find a practical solution other than “evolve superhuman reaction time” or “just guess.” (Personally I think even though both of those might work, neither of those are “practical” solutions.) I know I’m not a threat to win a tournament, and never will be, I’m not that dunning-kruger retarded, but one thing that I am is a veteran of the FGC who’s played fighting games for over 12 years at a tournament level. I feel like I kinda know what I’m talking about and when I’ve explained “Street Fighter 5-Frames” to some people, including some players who are vastly superior to me, they’ve agreed with me. But some (and in many cases it’s newer players who probably are dunning-kruger retarded) tell me I’m a complete idiot who has no idea what I’m talking about. Well, I’d like to find out, so, if you feel so obliged, prove me wrong, but be aware, I’m here for discussion and learning, I will discuss any videos or responses to this thread that you submit, and I expect that discussion to be civil. I want to actually figure this out communally, and I will report your post if all you do is come in here and say “lol u dumb.”

USFIV was all about “block and punish” and I honestly think that in SFV that’s a less correct way to play (not completely wrong, but less correct.) Street Fighter 5-Frames is about rapidly forcing situations in which your opponent doesn’t have the reaction time to properly stop to the thing you’re going to do, in part thanks to the fact that your character might very well have an option that single-handedly stuffs everything they can possibly do. It’s up to us to decide if this is 1) true, and 2) if true, acceptable enough for us to want to keep playing the game. I’d like to think I and others have what it takes to rise to this level, but I also feel like the bar has been set higher than ever, and I’m starting to wonder if I or even most players are even capable of reaching it.

I guess if you want a TL;DR it’s this: Capcom expects us to have a 5 frame or quicker reaction time because there are 5 frame moves in the game that in common situations function like option selects by stuffing everything your opponent can do, and are never not a bad idea in those situations, this allows throw mixup to be a real thing, but throws are also 5 frames so either “true” reaction time or “pure guessing” is forced onto the player being pressured. I’m not sure a true 5 frame reaction time is something that most humans, even the ones who play games competitively, can reliably achieve and repeatedly demonstrate, but I’ll give it a shot I guess. If you disagree, feel free to read my post and show me how I’m wrong. If you can show me I’m wrong, then we’ll all learn from it and that’s a good thing. If you think I’m wrong and can’t prove it, just keep your mouth shut for your own sake please, we should all be focused on learning this particular game’s mechanics and nuances, and I think what I’ve identified here is a really important one.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/645/742/748.gif

At least put the original quote in a spoiler, goddammit

[Cestus]

At least that’s what I call it. Oh and be forewarned, if you don’t want to read a long post, just leave and don’t make a comment. “This post is too long” there I said it, your job’s done you can go away now.

Anyway, ever since this game came out and frame data became available I’ve noticed something about this game that I’ve been pointing out to people, some online, some IRL and pretty much just anywhere anybody will listen. Characters with 5 frame medium normals (standing or crouching) generally have an advantage in SFV that can’t be understated.

Now let me back up before I explain that. And for the record I’m trying to make this post about facts more so than opinions, so try to keep that in mind.

We all knew that SFV wasn’t going to be USFIV. Some people like this about it, some don’t, personally I don’t care.
We all saw that Combofiend said they didn’t want one frame links and option selects in the game. (Even though there are option selects in the game, this early we can probably agree they aren’t as impactful as they were in USFIV where their knowledge and implication was more or less necessary for high level play.)

One of the complaints some had about USFIV is that you got too much damage from the combos that resulted from connecting with a light normal, because if you had the one-frame link timing down, light normals could lead to huge combos with many characters. People didn’t feel like they should lose 40+% of their life because they did a move that was -3 on block. I’m not here to debate whether this was a good thing or a bad thing, just stating it as a fact cause it’s important to my discussion about SFV.

It’s pretty obvious that this was removed from SFV. Most characters get comparatively very little damage from combos resulting from light normals in SFV, and on top of that they require pretty tight (3 frame I believe) links/reaction time. Yeah it’s easier than a one frame link, but there were techniques to help with those like plinking/pianoing and eventually it was no longer about “reacting” but simple muscle memory once you’d successfully punished that -3 move with the first hit of the combo. Part of what I’m getting at is, in reality, humans don’t have 2 frame reaction time. They don’t even have 5 or 6. Now there we go, I KNOW I just said the first thing in this post that someone will disagree with. “I get 1 frame links all the time” or “I used to crouch tech throws in USFIV on the regular, and that was only 3/4 frames.” The point I’m making is, if you think you have 3 frame reaction time, try to react to something unexpected outside of a video game in .05 seconds. You’re driving down the highway at 60mph and the truck in front of you kicks up a medium-sized rock right at you, are you swerving out of the way, or do you have a fresh crack in your windshield? Cause that’s an example of something that happens in “3 frames” worth of time more or less. Let’s not bring up the fact that by a pure physics standpoint this is a bad example because of vehicle size, obstructions in the other lane, and the gradient at which the wheel is turned etc. etc. if it were possible to dodge that rock in that amount of time, everyone still gets hit by that rock, unless maybe they were playing “rock dodge simulator” and knew that there was a strong possibility of it happening or that it was literally an inevitability. The ability to correctly anticipate a situation you expect to happen factors into your “reaction time.”

In fighting games we’re never truly reacting to what we’re seeing and processing with our eyes, we’re reacting to the situation. Let’s say in USFIV your opponent scored a hard knockdown on you and then waited briefly and did what you know to be a safe jump, you see all of this and think “they’re probably going to try to throw me because it’s the fastest move they have and we’ll be at point blank range, I should crouch tech.” And then you do, and then you brag about having a 3 frame reaction time. No, you started reacting the instant you got hard knocked-down, that’s more like a 40~50 frame reaction time with a 3 frame execution window in which you’re expected to actually do something, but your brain was “reacting” to the situation the whole time. The same could be said if you’re the one knocking your opponent down, you already knew that was a possibility, you already had a plan for what to do if it happened. Let’s use another example; red parries in 3s. It’s been awhile but IIRC red parries are parries that are performed within 2 or fewer frames of the move being parried and you’re basically only ever doing them to interrupt blockstrings. Despite this, in my opinion, they’re not very hard and there are some situations in which red parries should basically always happen. A blocked Ken SA3 or Q SA1, the last hit of Dudley’s machine gun blow, the s.lp or the s.lk in Yun’s “divekick to Gen-Ei-Jin” setup which is divekick>s.lp>s.lk>s.mp>(shoulder or gen ei jin activate) the last hit of Yang’s s.mp>s.hp>b.hp target combo, or the last hit of Necro’s hook. Red parrying in these situations is not that difficult for seasoned 3s players, even though you only have a 2 frame “execution window” you had the entire length of the blockstring up until that point to “prepare” to hit that 2 frame window. It’s not visibly seeing and reacting to the move, it’s reacting to the situation, and in every case I’ve shown, you have in reality way way more than 2 frames to do that.

So the point I’m trying to make is this. We all know, or should know by now that there’s essentially two fundamental components of a fighting game; the mechanical side such as execution and hit confirming, and the mindgames/rock-paper-scissors side such as correctly anticipating your opponent’s next move or “training” them to do a certain thing. Because of the, for lack of a better term “priority” system in SFV, where mediums crush lights if they trade, and heavys crush mediums and lights if they trade, putting moves on the screen in “neutral” scenarios, as footsies mainly, often scores counter hits, which buys you a few more precious frames to hit confirm with, or perhaps allows a combo that is otherwise impossible without counter hit. Being able to take advantage of this situation is what separates good players from not-so-good players in SFV, and usually, there’s only about 5 frames in which to take an action before your “window” is up and we’re right back to a completely chaotic situation, by which I mean a neutral situation at basically point blank range when everyone wants to touch buttons ASAP. A lot of us have probably heard Arturo or some other pro player say something like “SFV is about figuring out when your turn is.” Well, the window for your “turn” is about 5 frames long, basically.

PSA: I’m a not-so-good player at SFV, but that doesn’t mean I’m not right about this. What I see here, and I think it might be problematic, is that characters with 5 frame mediums can more or less avoid the neutral game mixup blender, and even the footsie game if they simply follow up every thing they put on the screen that leaves them +2 or more on block, or their opponent -2 or more when blocked with a 5 frame medium. “Yeah, Spectre, that’s called a frame trap” I’m sure you’ll say, yeah it is, but because of the way this game works, it’s also a one button option select. Option selects function by “automatically choosing the thing that correctly stuffs the option your opponent chose.” Well, in SFV if you have a character with a 5 frame medium, if executed with perfect timing, that button always stuffs everything your opponent can do as long as you’re within that window of them being -2 or worse, or you being +2 or greater. It stuffs neutral jumps, backdashes, 3 frame normals (the fastest non-super-non reversal moves in the game) and throws. If your opponent does anything other than block, they always get hit by the medium, or worse, counter hit, potentially leading to huge damage because you have more time to hit confirm off of mediums than lights. This maybe wouldn’t be so bad if -2 and +2 weren’t both really common frames for moves to leave you at. The reason for this is that if more moves were -3, that’d be punishable by jabs creating a USFIV situation, and if more were +3 or better, well since there’s no real “get off me” move in SFV like parries or focus attacks, the frame traps would be way too legit. There’s V-reversal, but compared to the two I just listed, it’s kinda lacking because unlike the two options I just mentioned, it requires meter (which you might not have,) can’t net guaranteed damage, is character specific as to whether it’s better used offensively, and can even be beaten by an option select throw in rare cases (which might become more prevalent since that’s just been discovered.)

The other problem this “5 frame normal” setup causes is that once a defending player knows about this, the threat of that move allows the advantaged player to get away with things that are otherwise within the parameters of SFV maybe not that great of an idea. Most jabs and shorts are 3 or 4 frames in this game meaning they beat throws clean. But if my opponent knows that I know that their 5 frame normal beats my jab because of the frame trap or frame disadvantage, they can just choose to throw me, (or worse, command throw me) because if I jab or if I throw, I lose to their medium and get comboed for huge damage. What this means is, if my opponent is properly using mixup and not just always choosing the frame-perfect one button OS that there’s literally no way out of (which forces me to take chip damage too, lets not forget,) Capcom expects me to react to a 5 frame move (by which I mean either the medium, or a throw, they’re both 5 frames.) And yeah I know “you can V-reversal.” Sure, IF I have the meter, but doing a V-reversal might be bad for the reasons I mentioned above, and they can also possibly bait it and block/interrupt it. I see people doing V-reversals a lot, but in my mind the jury’s still out on how much they swing the game in your favor, if at all. You might tell me you could potentially also do a move that has armor (if you have one) or an EX move that has armor (if you can afford to risk it and use the meter) keep in mind though, things like FANG’s 2-hit 5 frame s.mk, or Chun in V-trigger can potentially still blow this up. So those are your options really. Keep blocking, take chip damage and hope to survive the mixup, or use meter (EX armor/V-reversal/super) if you have it, because doing literally anything else will get you hit and probably lose you the round. Note, I’m not saying that the fact that this is how the game works is a bad thing per se, but I do think this is in fact how the game works. Most matches are decided in this oft-occurring “magic” 5 frame window that exists between -2 and +2 frames, where proper (i.e guaranteed) punishment doesn’t exist, but some characters have a massive advantage because they happen to have a normal that stuffs virtually every option their opponent has, and there’s no reason for them not to do it 100% of the time, unless they actually feel like doing mixup just to be scary. Also, if you happen to be fighting against an opponent whose fastest normal is a 4 frame move, then 6 frame mediums serve this same purpose.

And yes, I know I never talked about spacing off of blockstrings, which is super super important, but that comes from character specific matchup knowledge, and/or the opponent not realizing their move will whiff (which they should realize, and therefore not do,) and typically speaking, you don’t have too many more than 5 frames to whiff punish anyway (remember we’re talking specifically about 5 frame medium attacks.) Making sure you don’t whiff your blockstring/counter hit OS does matter for the sake of keeping pressure, but it doesn’t really affect the 5-frame window for reactions, especially if the opponent knows that move will blow them up if you don’t whiff, why would they touch a button in that scenario? I feel like “spacing your blockstrings correctly, and whiff punishing when your opponent fails to do this” is a thing that’s not really going to come into play in a match with less than highly skilled players. If you’re the kind of player who’s keen to this and takes advantage of it, good for you, you’re leveling up, most players aren’t there yet and lots probably never will be.

Then we have the situation for “what do I do when the window is between -1 and +1 frames?” Nothing is guaranteed here, everything is chaotic, but your best bet is probably your fastest move, which is probably a 3 frame jab, that you’ll have no more than 3 frames to hit confirm off of if you want more damage. If you don’t confirm though, you’ll instantly reset the scenario you were literally just in, you’ll be at point blank range with around 3 to 5 frames to make a decision. Also, lights cancel into lights, so if you’re mashing you’ll get a useless 2 hit combo, probably push yourself too far away to even threaten with your 5 frame move (assuming you have one) and never get the confirm. A lot of players will tell you “just block” but that’s a stylistic choice in this situation tbh, and if you don’t have a 5 frame reaction time, probably a bad idea, what if your opponent decides to throw you? 3 frame moves do stuff things within this tiny window (and 3 frame moves also stuff 6 or higher frame moves in situations when the person doing the jab is -2 and the spacing is right) so hitting jab or short is not always a bad idea, contrary to the opinion of people who play characters that get huge damage off of 5 frame mediums and tell you you should never touch a button unless you intend to hit confirm into huge damage off of it, by the way it also helps if that button is +2 on block thereby resetting the situation every time and eliminating the need to think about your options. Yeah I’m talking to you, Karin players. B)

Here’s the one place where I’ll tell you that what I’m saying is an opinion: I feel it’s problematic when some characters have this built in, and others don’t. We maybe didn’t realize it at the time, but the fact that SF had 3 frame throws before now was the great equalizer, if someone was point blank before now, throwing was your safest high percentage option for both players, ironically resulting in a tech most of the time. Throws were so good it basically made point blank mixup more difficult, more risky, and less likely to happen. Now that they’re 5 frames, it’s trouble because 5 frames is still too fast to physically react to, but it loses to more than just throws/crouch techs (which no longer exist.) You might be able to sneak one in as a mixup meaning throws are still a “good idea,” but 5 frames also happens to be the sweet spot for the highest percentage chance of getting blown the fuck up if you guess wrong, or have less than frame perfect timing, meaning throws are actually a terrible idea, and the sad thing is, most of us still do them out of reflexive habit. And correct me if I’m wrong here, but if a 5 frame throw trades with a 5 frame normal, the throw loses (at least that’s what I’ve noticed in training mode.)

I don’t have a problem with mixup, but I kinda have a problem with that mixup having to exist within only a 3~5 frame window most of the time because 5 frame moves cover so many options, and I kinda have a problem with that scenario being repeated 20 or so times per match, The fact is, most new players, average players, and older players like myself who have a diminishing reaction time due to aging, can’t pull off the combined 2 factored mindgames and execution required to outperform their opponents in a window that small. What this means is, SFV has a much larger gap between high level play, and not high level play than pretty much any other Street Fighter to date (except maybe SF2.) That could wind up being a very bad thing for the prolonged life of the game, but then again the online F2P “new character every X months” marketing strategy might keep less than great players playing the game too, it’s too early to tell.

Now if you think I’m wrong about this, I’m willing to admit that, but I want to see the proof. Why do I say this? Because if you can prove me wrong, and show it to us, then we can all learn how to work around what is honestly a very difficult and frustrating part of this game. If I’m wrong, and there’s options that people have to escape this type of thing that I’ve missed or gotten wrong, we all become better players. This thread wasn’t made to complain about the game, it was made to discuss a facet of the game that I think many players either don’t understand and get frustrated by because they view it as “random” or a facet that frustrates players like myself who honestly believe they know exactly what’s going on, and simply can’t find a practical solution other than “evolve superhuman reaction time” or “just guess.” (Personally I think even though both of those might work, neither of those are “practical” solutions.) I know I’m not a threat to win a tournament, and never will be, I’m not that dunning-kruger retarded, but one thing that I am is a veteran of the FGC who’s played fighting games for over 12 years at a tournament level. I feel like I kinda know what I’m talking about and when I’ve explained “Street Fighter 5-Frames” to some people, including some players who are vastly superior to me, they’ve agreed with me. But some (and in many cases it’s newer players who probably are dunning-kruger retarded) tell me I’m a complete idiot who has no idea what I’m talking about. Well, I’d like to find out, so, if you feel so obliged, prove me wrong, but be aware, I’m here for discussion and learning, I will discuss any videos or responses to this thread that you submit, and I expect that discussion to be civil. I want to actually figure this out communally, and I will report your post if all you do is come in here and say “lol u dumb.”

USFIV was all about “block and punish” and I honestly think that in SFV that’s a less correct way to play (not completely wrong, but less correct.) Street Fighter 5-Frames is about rapidly forcing situations in which your opponent doesn’t have the reaction time to properly stop to the thing you’re going to do, in part thanks to the fact that your character might very well have an option that single-handedly stuffs everything they can possibly do. It’s up to us to decide if this is 1) true, and 2) if true, acceptable enough for us to want to keep playing the game. I’d like to think I and others have what it takes to rise to this level, but I also feel like the bar has been set higher than ever, and I’m starting to wonder if I or even most players are even capable of reaching it.

I guess if you want a TL;DR it’s this: Capcom expects us to have a 5 frame or quicker reaction time because there are 5 frame moves in the game that in common situations function like option selects by stuffing everything your opponent can do, and are never not a bad idea in those situations, this allows throw mixup to be a real thing, but throws are also 5 frames so either “true” reaction time or “pure guessing” is forced onto the player being pressured. I’m not sure a true 5 frame reaction time is something that most humans, even the ones who play games competitively, can reliably achieve and repeatedly demonstrate, but I’ll give it a shot I guess. If you disagree, feel free to read my post and show me how I’m wrong. If you can show me I’m wrong, then we’ll all learn from it and that’s a good thing. If you think I’m wrong and can’t prove it, just keep your mouth shut for your own sake please, we should all be focused on learning this particular game’s mechanics and nuances, and I think what I’ve identified here is a really important one.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/645/742/748.gif

At least put the original quote in a spoiler, goddammit

You don’t understand art.