Ryu matches
Advantage vs- Vega
Even vs- Akuma, Chun, Karin, Ken, Fang, Alex
Disadvantage vs- Birdie, Cammy, Sim, Ibuki, Juri, Laura, Bison, Nash, Necalli, Mika, Urien, Gief
Get fucked vs-Rog, Guile, Rashid
I just had it down in my mock up chart because I remember 6 4 was what people were saying during Season 1. Sounds like it’s a different match now.
Whether it really pertains a ton to matchups is questionable, but I guess it’s nice to just have more numbers and formulas to talk about which some people like I guess.
I could post Dafeetlee’s Season 2 oki for Ibuki if I find it. Ibuki’s oki is so derp easy compared to the other cast it’s pretty funny. Sometimes people combo into HK kazekiri which then actually forces you to play the neutral/backrise game with people, but other than that everything is neutral tech only or you’re in an air reset so get fucked.
the oki chart thing might be good to set up another thread for but I don’t think it belongs in this one
I’ve been watching each and every good Ken player I know get destroyed by Rashid. The match up was a little tough to play in S1, but completely manageable. S2 Ken just can’t open up Rashid as often as Rashid opens him up and worse yet Rashid gets out of the corner too damn easily.
What changed about kens tools or rashids tools that has made rashid unopenable?
Kens blockbeaters have stayed the same so it seems like you are more than likely referring to neutral? What about the neutral has changed from S1 to S2?
I ask for pure academics as I don’t play either character, but have dabbled in both.
Probably ex tatsu. That was like a catch all answer if you got out buttoned by a character.
Primarily the neutral game is what I mean. Ken had a really good jump in game against Rashid, so much so that Rashid had to adjust his spacing to negate it, but this helped pull Rashid forward into a range Ken could actually do something on the ground. With the weaker air options for Ken, Rashid has a lot less to worry about and can sit back at ranges which he dominates.
But probably the biggest change was how Rashid’s Tornado > Roll works in S2. In S1 there were a lot of ways Ken could check Button > Toranado > Roll. For instance you could actually OS Rashid’s c.HP with Ken’s LK Tatsu. Since it is a two hitting move and only the first hit was cancelable, you can OS it so that if he canceled the first hit you were in less block stun so your LK Tatsu would come out. If he didn’t cancel it the second hit would keep you in block stun. In general LK Tatsu could beat a huge number of tornado set ups.
In general Ken could meterlessly keep Rashid from getting in for free which kept Rashid fairly honest, but in S2 a combination of Ken’s defensive nerfs and the speed up of Rashid’s tornado have basically made it so Ken’s only option to stop it is EX DP or V-Reversal. But even with EX DP the dumb thing is there are ways Rashid can actually make it so the non-EX Tornados trade with the EX DP in Rashid’s favor.
You can see an example of this in the Gachikun vs Momochi set from Topanga. It’s around 3:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U51xbNL0uA
So not even EX DPing is a guarantee that you’ll get out of it. V-Reversal is the most reliable, but spending V-Reversal as Ken is a bad thing and it doesn’t really get you out of the situation either.
That’s probably the two biggest changes to the match up that make it bad for Ken. There’s some other ones that have less of an impact, but when you add it on the major changes just piles on the problems.
It’s primarily a spacing trick. Basically you are trying to make it so the tornado is still on top of Ken by the time EX DP runs out of invincibility frames.
But what makes it annoying is that the spacing to get the the Tornado to trade is actually a pretty good range for Rashid.
Ah ok thats what I figured. Frames running out
I think If people want to talk matchup balance a good way to do that is to talk about risk versus reward, tool versus tool and to a lesser extent, ease of gameplay…
Like I don’t know how necalli fares versus ryu but it seems like an advantaged matchup for necalli because of the tool versus tool interaction between necallis v skill and ryus fireball.
But that might only be against a ryu that just wants to throw fireballs. If the ryu wants to go in and get his hands dirty the matchup seems to start to really even out… till necalli gets v trigger.
So that’s how I’d score the matchup:
Slight favor necalli against an aggressive ryu. Big favor necalli against a defensive ryu. But since aggressive seems to be the way to go for ryu I would just list it as slight advantage necalli.
^^
A breakdown like that would be nice for matchups. Whether it is correct or incorrect is immaterial, seeing what players think about matchups as far as what strategies are hard to deal with and what moves gives them a hard time… or their opponent a hard time, is the primary reason for a thread like this.
Who cares about numbers if we don’t know why the numbers are reached?
Like @LoyalSol ken breakdown against rashid is on point whether it holds up to scrutiny in a year or more time, or not.
agreed. matchup charts without any explanation aren’t particularly informative, nor are they likely to be accurate this early into the season. I’d much rather see discussion of specific matchups.
Would it be beneficial to do daily match up discussions between a few characters. Like Monday bison vs chun and Mika vs cammy would be discussed? Even weekly could do. Then we fill up the chart using the resources we have obtained.
This is actually a good idea! We might make a few more than that though, otherwise we won’t have anything done before S2 is over.
We’ll essentially never be able to finish discussion as new dlc characters will be added and patch changes always change things ( even if patch changes are very infrequent and don’t involve new meters or mechanics)
I guess daily wouldnt be bad. I could fill out my chart as matchups are discussed until we get more concrete numbers and descriptions for all the matchups.
Any character matchups you guys wanna get started with?
I would be most helpful with matchups for Chun, Ibuki and somewhat on Juri and Cammy. Though I feel we all see enough matchups and can pull footage to analyze new things. Best thing this does is get us to understand more about characters we don’t play and see their tools more specifically
The funny thing was that regular tatsu was so much better than EX ever was.
The thing both me and Chris T kept telling everyone was that the glaring flaw with the EX Tatsu was that it was pretty easy to crouch under and punish. Once people knew that trick, the strength of the move was much much weaker. Birdie was probably one of the few characters that had to consistently worry about EX Tatsu.
The regular one on the other hand you could make someone guess if you were doing a regular jump in or not and it was harder to get under.
Maybe we should go through the most problematic match ups that people have at the moment. Would it help if we got balrog, laura, and urien out of the way? I think some people need to know what to do in some match ups so they are a bit more understandable.
Random gunfight post in the Alex forum. Dude only has like 3 posts in 6 years so probably won’t be hearing much from him, I assume he’s the actual gunfight, anyways his thoughts on some Alex matchups:
I thought gunfight was Japanese? If that’s actually him that’s gold.
The post is typed in enough engrish/broken wording that he probably is Japanese/foriegn