I mean I agree and that sentiment its one of the reasons I don’t like crush counters as a mechanic.
That being said, the alternative in many cases is just raw heavy buttons at that range. I’d prefer regular long range cancelable normals or higher damage buttons, but realistically those things are not gonna happen. As far as I can tell this would make neutral less random at the expense if making it weaker, and neutral is already the weakest aspect of SFV.
I’ll take random flailing that occasionally converts over consistent raw button presses into nothing. Again not my ideal choice but its SFV.
Neutral feels weak because buttons are short. No one hits a CC or sees a CC hit and ever feels or thinks it was a smart interaction. There is no positive association. No fun involved. Its just a thing that happens in SFV.
I’m suggesting it would be missed in the absence of something to replace is as a ranged conversions. CC’s are the closest thing most characters have to that.
We aren’t getting longer buttons (especially cancelable ones), and Capcom doesn’t care that forum tryhards like us think CC’s are random. It should be obvious Capcom is not interested in promoting “smart interaction”.
Also I think it’s extremely pretentious to say nobody would miss CC’s. It has a flashy visual effect and leads to big damage combos. I’m sure someone somewhere loves it.
To be clear, in my ideal SF environment CC’s and VT’s don’t exist and most matches play out something like this
But that isn’t the game SFV is gonna be. Removing ranged CC’s just makes the already weak neutral even weaker at the expense of less randomness. Capcom could remedy that by giving out more robust neutral tools, but changes like that would undermine the kind of play they are clearly trying to promote.
Sfxt had special counter hit states on a very limited amount of moves. Actually love it in that game. Obviously not the really the same thing with the way it worked within it’s own game
Idk. I think most people hate the random nature of neutral CCs and would prefer a flat removal of ranged CC conversions over keeping them without a replacement. Thats the general vibe i get anywhere where sfv discussion happens
And? In certain cases they do here. What is the basis for that first sentence?
But that aside it doesn’t need to be a full combo just something as simple as your characters variant of max range cr.mk xx FB. Which I’d like to point out is absent for a lot of characters due to short buttons, unsafe specials, etc.
I love crush counters, and I’m always looking for one since Ryu can cancel the heavy punch to a roundhouse heavy kick. Mix this up with jumps, dashing in and zoning, and I really can’t see any possibly better game design. That’s not to say there ain’t room for improvement in balancing, of course.
I’m clearly hearing a majority right now being opposed to CCs but personally I love them.
Yea thats ok. I understand some people like it, and you aren’t objectively wrong. Im just saying people have been posturing for removal of neutral CCs since the sfv meta became established.
I don’t think its pretentious at this point to suggest that the vast majority of players wouldn’t miss it.
That could be true. I won’t pretend to know either way. I do want to ask though;
What is the ultimate goal of this change?
In a vacuum it makes neutral weaker, which I don’t think anyone wants. It also supposedly makes it less random, which I know a lot of people including myself would like. However I’m not totally convinced that the latter would work out the way people think.
I feel like this change wouldn’t make the game any less random, but would just move the randomness to other areas. Dashing and neutral bypass tools would become stronger with this change.
Also I’m getting ready for work so I won’t be able to continue this discussion the way i’d like.
I agree. Or at the very least add proper risk reward. If its gonna give a dash up combo it cant be plus on block and hits crouchers and be long range and not be jumpable.
To lessen the degree of randomness and add more intent behind actions. I think people would be more apt to preemptively check dashes and contest space if they weren’t afraid of getting crushed into full combos
Make every CC button chargeable. You will only get CC property after charging it, and the charge would give good players an easier time reacting to it.
Idk, Juri’s CCs are terrible and even when her super slow st.hk hits as a CC the only followup she gets is st.lp xx hp.dp and yet I wouldn’t call her neutral “weak”.
Ehh maybe I don’t mind crush counters because before, in an age before time itself I played a lot of Guilty Gear, specifically Guilty Gear X2 Accent Core. In that game characters like Jam and Slayer had their entire gameplan revolving around fishing for counterhits. Nothing felt quite as good as watching Jam rushing at you like an idiot with Puffball, Puffball, Puffball, Puffball feint, tag you once, then go into wallsplat to puffball, FB Pullball, dizzy, dead. Getting sad just thinking about it.
I guess you could argue GG had more tools in general to deal with bullshittery like puffball and Pilebunker fishing, like Alpha Counters that were actually good, but in terms of raw “unga” I think Accent Core is up there. Man I miss that game : (
