“Why not just nerf it’s ranged if that’s how it’s intended to be?” - firstly, my intention is to change the currently intended CC design to fit something that creates cleaner ground game. So naturally it goes against CCs original intention. Secondly, nerfing ranges is a bad idea games already stubby, and it doesn’t answer 80% of other CC normals.
Like as opposed to looking at Rog, how do you changed a ranged CC at close ranges like Abigail’s st.hp given your aforementioned remedy. You don’t just nerf the range, that’s stupid. Or something like Rashid cr.hp, how do you nerf it’s range?
Proximity based CC ranges create sweet spots characters hold - or push in to, to guarantee damage from their best normals. You don’t isolate cases and nerf the normals independently, it’s adjusting the current CC system to create a cleaner environment.
And that’s the idea. A normal like Rog’s st.hk in prior games wouldn’t be giving damage at it’s tip, so it’s not unnatural to remove that option which is CREATING the muddy environment on the ground in terms of traditional poking tools being eclipsed by the CC system.
In prior games a move like rogs st.hk would do massive damage, and maybe even be cancelable into a super safe special that does chip and leaves the character at a range where they can still attack or be aggressive.
That’s kinda non existent for sf5, I know, but the ability to really fuck people from range has always been there, in one form or another. In this game it’s hidden behind a counter hit instead of a simple autopilot cancel so it’s not something that ever worried me and I’ve had rog players make me block that bastard move 3-4 times in a row.
This is sf5 so nerfing shit like rashid cr.hp is easy:
Make it so the move has less pushback (or even vacuums a bit) and also make it negative on block. This can be punishably negative, lose your turn negative, or -2 mixup negative. The world is your oyster, can even make it -10 if that’s what’s wanted. I wouldn’t be behind that kind of ridiculous change, but that’s the kind of stuff that can happen without doing weirdo ranged not ranged CC stuff that nerfs the hell out of characters.
Like I like it for rog and dictator, but on,y if the have something to make up for it. Otherwise it’s just a blanket nerf to them and I’d rather not see that aspect of either character gte nerfed personally because those aren’t the things that frustrate me against them, personally. I’d nerf rogs v skill to be slower to gain projectile invincibility, and I’d slow down his medium AA. That would probably be it. MAYBE nerf the range on LP/ex dash, but probably not. Bison I’d definitely nerf the range that he can ex dr in from and I’d nerf the height he can normal DR from, and I’d call it a day because for me bisons anti neutral tools are the o my thing that really piss me off about him.
And if I couldn’t get those changes in I’d ATLEAST make it so that ex stomp/dr is easy to air to air. Fucking hate fighting g bisons that use it as an “option select” against both jumping opponents and people that stay on the ground.
what? lmao. His st.hk is like identical in how his cl.hk worked in SFIV. It’s a move intended for close ranged usage, you get a link on hit and it keeps your turn on block. Difference being there was a better long ranged st.hk used for poking. I’ve got like zero idea what you’re talking about rn.
In sf4 he could just fucking sweep you which was safe on block into hard knockdown. No need for CCor cancel. No risk on block and great reward on hit, a fantastic tool unless he was playing against my chun and wanted to eat a super, or was so predictable with it that he did it into a focus, which the better players could all fadc back anyways… but I digress, he certainly had tools to fuck you up from that range in sf4, that were just as powerful and just as safe.
How are you gonna compare his old ST sweep to a completely different normal that’s +3oB with no comparative usage to the sweep.
Also I just find comparing tools between games is dumb in general, they don’t play the same. V doesn’t have prox normals, and it’s not ST which was a busted game in it’s own right.
Because like I said earlier, if he has something to make up for it, then great. Get rid of that move. But he has nothing to make up for it. So no, don’t get rid of that move. In sf4 he had a move to make up for not having a ranged safe CC, most characters did. In this game many do not, but that’s no reason t9 take it from him same as it’s no reason to take this or that away from another character just because not everyone has it.
All I’m seeing is an unnecessary nerf to a character and playstyle that isn’t particularly problematic.
It’s a universal change to the CC system what are you not grasping here, it’s not JUST Balrog and it’s to address the current issues the CC imposes as opposed to just targeting specific character normals???
Universal mechanics don’t either. I’m seeing an unnecessary nerf… for no good reason other than… you want it because it “feels” bad to you? Not even a strength discrepancy?
Like idk man but when I see rogs st.HK I see a move DESIGNED to be abused from its max range. I don’t know how else one would look at that move. It makes NO SENSE that the move should only CC upclose.
In fact CC IN GENERAL seems like something that is more used from range rather than upclose.
I see a move that converts into full combo on ch from range…
And I’m not supposed to use it from range? LOL
I’m really smh right now.
If I’m closer with rog I think I would be using normals that don’t push me so far back so that I can still have throw pressure or walk up throw pressure, but that’s just me. It’s a move that can be used at both it’s closest and it’s max range, but since it has the startup of a heavy normal, I wouldn’t be using it inside jab range…
Bro the entire point about the proposed change is to remove that, because it makes the ground game shitty and creates a linear gameplan for certain characters. Not limited to but including Rog. And it’s a specific thing to V, it being a CC conversion at range is a knock-on effect of removing prox normals but still having normals like that present, it wasn’t made with the intention of being used at tip.
I think I get what you are saying… finally. Something about proximity normals giving good to great dividends and something about non proximity normals not, and that that therefor means that a ranged (heavy) normal shouldn’t give good dividends…
I mean… maybe…
But in the case of older games (and yes sf4 as well) you simply had autopilot mediums or safe on block heavies that knocked down that did that shot for you and they were EVEN EASIER TO USE AND APPLY AND AUTOPILOT because they didn’t require the opponent to get counter hit. All that needed to happen was get hit low… or just get hit.
Damage outside of telephone booth range in sf5 is abysmal. I really don’t want any nerfs to what I already consider trash midrange damage, and ranged CC nerfs whether universal or not, do that. Close range CC nerfs I couldn’t care less about except in the case of punishing DP’s.
One year of my first online match on SFV.
Took me one full year to get to super gold scrub.
I need to get much better during the course of this second year.
I might be misunderstanding the conversation, but if not I agree with Dime. Nerfing max range CCs just removes one of the few (only?) ways a lot of can convert from long range into real damage. I don’t really like crush counters, but reliable long range conversions in SFV are rare.
If that change is made I want more lomg range cancelable buttons, which is clearly against Capcom’s philosophy for this game.
Jesus christ I was taking a dump while reading the exchange between dime and frost and my mum was screaming and wondering what I was doing so long in the toilet. 30 minutes went by just like that.
That proximity cc change would make the game even more confusing, not sure that I want that.
It would also affect reversal punishes and i am not sure that i like it. If you want to nerf cc at max range, isn’t it better to just give the different animation, similar to Akuma’s cr. Fp hitting airborne? So, less damage, but more corner carry or something.
Not every character needs a long ranged conversion from randomly flailing around at neutral. Thats part of what makes the game feel random. A lot of times there isn’t any thought behind the button press. Its just swinging with minimal risk into a suprise knockdown
Also for the love of god can we fully nerf crouch jab AAs? Why do Bison and Guile still get to do it?
Its hard enough to get a good jump on Guile as is, and Bisons design shouldnt allow last second twitch AAs if he gets to also completely dominate the ground
