Hey Ben
Ben
listen
Suck my throbbing BBC you fucking cuck!
If you call being stuck in Super Diamond hell getting better than no. I’m good enough to take games off some GM players on their off days but not good enough to beat spastic Uriens that stopped giving a fuck a season ago. If our connections were better I’d give you a preview ass whoopin’ but alas netcode still sucks ballz.
It doesn’t mean anything I’m still trash. If you played rank for like a weekend you’d get there too.
I must say that i was very much having fun reading that one hit confirms drama.
I’m on a hilarious plateau in Super Plat.
Can probably still whoop your ass though.
Well, you did say “someone”
Anything can be a crutch. Anything you (or I) am specifically good at, can be a crutch. I’ve played hundreds if not thousands of players in the arcades. I saw guys with great reactions and guys with great footsies and guys with great execution… I’ve beaten them all. They all had relied on their fundamental strengths to win matches. I rely on my solid play and slowing a game down to win. That’s my crutch. I also rely on solid mixups once I’ve gained an advantaged position, to win. That’s also a crutch. I don’t do well in hyper fast games where I can’t slow things down. In skullgirls, a hyper fast game, I can slow shit down to a crawl at will, against damn near anyone because there is this “scrubby ass thing” called a big band assist that counters basically everything my opponent can try to do, and not only that, puts my opponent in blockstun and gives me full combo if it hits. Much of the game is just about my opponent trying to bait that move out, and me trying to not get it baited. This makes it an incredible footsie and mindgame tool.
Power punching boxers rely on their power. This is a crutch. People with great for or handspeed rely on those things.
Everyone relies on something.
In here in this forum peoplehave told me my reliance on tick throws was a crutch… well they are/were.
Having a character with good AA is a definite crutch for me.
So yeah, relying on one hit confirms to contest a space better than your opponent can be, like anything else, a crutch.
I define a crutch as anything you get used to winning with that you would have a hard time winning without.
One of your crutches (as you know) is kolin. Lose her and you drop ranks… well at least this is what you have said in the past. Nothing wrong with that, but nothing wrong with stating it either.
-edit
You also might be wondering when something that you rely on ISNT a crutch?
You’ll know something isn’t a crutch when you lose it, and yet you can still adapt and win without it. That’s pretty much the text book example of knowing whether you are crutching or not.
Crutches aren’t necessarily a bad thing, but there is no skill component to using them. They can be skilled or unskilled. Doesn’t matter. An actual crutch keeps you from falling down or walking without huge amounts of trouble, without it you can’t walk as easily. It’s still a good thing, but it’s something that one would acknowledge not being able to get around without, if one needed them… to get around.
lol holy shit.
Dime is the poster the SF5 Lounge needs and deserves.
To be fair, Dime has a point. That definition of crutch is long-winded, but on point.
does having legs allowing you to walk make them a crutch, crutch implies an aide, reactions and character pick aren’t an aide, they’re like a body part.
Thats a strawman.
Good question. I’d say it depends on what you want to do. Do you want to walk? Well, probably a crutch. Not a bad one but you obviously can’t walk without them.
Don’t give a shit about walking? Probably not a crutch since you didn’t use them much anyways. It’s pretty simple.
Still easily answered though, but they won’t like the answer of course, but when asked silly questions I’m happy to supply silly answers.
Idk how to multiquote on here. Makes it hard to answer everyone.
Had to paste this:
We were specifically talking about confirms, then we weint into reactions but the core argument here is cancel confirms. No one takes your or anyone else’s reactions away by taking a reactive component out of a game. Reactions are for every aspect of a game and pertain to almost everything.
I’ve never understood people’s fascinations with reaction speed. Lizards and dogs and small animals and bugs have better reactions than any human ever will. But they couldn’t play a fighting game to save their life. I’d rather personally celebrate those things that make us smart, not fast. But I have no illwill for reaction beats I jus don’t think that those that ALREADY have a huge advantage via reaction time, should have an even bigger advantage via making games specifically to tailor to that. Well actually I don’t mind the tailoring aspect, but tailoring an entire series to it is a bit much when there’s so much more gameplay to be had outside of that specific niche. I was one of the best SG players in the world… with terrible reactions. Kinda shows you or anyone else that reactions aren’t the end all be all unless the game is specifically tailored to be that way.
Dime’s house is where all keyboards go to die.
I kinda wanna break down Dimes post but then I saw Ben’s and I’m like, “naw that sums it up”.
Dime look… you’re probably a much better player than me… I’m not gonna pretend I’m a fighting game god or some theory crafting mega nerd. I don’t know the first thing about fighting game balance. But I think your definition of what defines what a crutch is is really all over the place (trying to find a big thesaurus word for this but I’m a brainlet).
I feel like you’re conflating practiced skill to flowcharts that can get you killed if you aren’t on your A game. Everyone fall into this though. I wouldn’t consider Momochi being able to OHC to be a crutch when a vast majority of the player base can’t do it on reaction. Would you really argue that if Momo couldn’t OHC that it would make him less of a player? I don’t think so. If we play that game just remove any core aspect of a character and dump all the top players in a death bracket and see who sinks or swims. Again I don’t necessarily disagree with your whole post but it feels like you’re moving the goal posts just to make your crutch argument work.
Huuuuuur niggas got mad skills but it’s all crutch.
I love Kolin’s V-Skill. It’s fucking great. I’m honestly surprised Capcom gave it to her or any character cuz It’s kinda dumb. But in season 2 it was so fucking dumb that the risks were completely outweighed by the reward. The move was her most minus on block attack outside of her super being blocked and pros were using it like the shit was +20. I spammed that move like a madman and it got me to diamond. The S3 patch notes came out and boy oh boy did Capcom do a number on her V-Skill. That was a crutch for me. It was a brain dead easy as fuck two button no execution ass move that took no thought. I memed my way up the ranks using it and against better players it got me killed because when I was on the defensive side I would crack and throw it out without thought.
So before S3 hit I told everyone I was gonna work on my fundies and drop using V-Skill because I liked Kolin enough to not drop her over the nerf. It was fucking hard but after a few weeks my fundamentals improved tremendously. Anyone that played me during that time can vouch for me on that. Kolins V-Skill was a crutch for me not because it made me good but because it weakened my ability to AA with a normal, my ability to block mix ups and it made me inpatient because I felt like the the reward was worth the risk. I’m a much better player even if Capcom had to expose me. But would I consider my ability to whiff punish to be a crutch when that’s a trite and true core aspect of being good at fighting games? No fucking way. That just sound like sour grapes from someone that’s mad that they can’t do it consistently.
Dime you know I’m not trying to come at you with the BS. I’m still a fucking baby in this scene. I haven’t grown my ass hairs yet to say much but I really think you’re wrong on this whole crutch thing.
Uhhhh master Ben if I just said so super duper dumb shit let me know. I cant have my whole post quoted by Ves and Windalfr with them just saying “No” lol
What i find amazing is that Dime always have the energy to go into these long winded debates over the weirdest things.
Like the other day i said Kage is boring and some started fighting back but whatever, if they dont agree, they don’t agree. No need to waste 30 mins discussing it.
While his opinion on this particular ohc and crutches is really bad, i find the spirit to keep arguing to be admirable
I must say, even though a lot of this shit goes way over my head, I appreciate guys like Frost, Dime, DJ, and anyone else willing to go into great detail about the various intricacies of SF or fighting games in general. I try to make it a point to read all of the posts when i can.
If I get what Dime is approaching, I think the initial claim was put out in a wrong way.
I probably somewhat agree that the branches of what makes a good player becomes smaller through time by way of sequential game releases. In SFV’s case, one-hit confirms stuff isn’t always reaction, in some cases it may involve execution involving quick motions (dexterity-relation) that even people with high success rate in reactions could potentially have trouble with.
Some might even have trouble applying offense-based reactions over defense-based reactions (ie: confirming from stray hits VS reacting from an anticipated action with a super). The latter is less relevant in SFV due to the sheer amount of moves in SFV with fast start-up and safety nets with/without V-Trigger canceling (example: Urien EX Tackle, generic Sliding/Forward-advancing attacks, etc.)
It can explain why people can become suddenly happy once they see actual oki from certain attacks… because it is something “advantageous.” The relation of what makes universal advantages such as throw loops and invul DPs too troubling for this game may be correlated with how oversaturated things are praised on for what makes good play such as generic offense, v-trigger unga, CH confirms, 3-framers, and one-hit confirms (no matter if late cancel properties or standing state visual OS are involved).
Don’t know if this is Dime’s prime approach, but it has some meaning if that’s the case. If there were a graph that depicts what makes a player good for SFV and it had categories such as defensive reactions, dexterity-based execution, pattern/rhythm execution, footsies/neutral, offensive reactions, yomi… it would probably be heavily skewed to favor those with offensive reactions for the most part with light touches on dexterity-based execution (especially when considering the amount of scramble play involved). The inconsistency with this is that not all characters will revolve primarily on offense… but the idea that the categorical synergy to be become good is less relevant in this game may hold up to some degree.
I appreciate you taking the time to make a considered, thought out post. Half of the reason why I do things like this is because of people like doctrine or even daemos. There ARE other way to think about things. Those ways don’t have to be right or wrong, but they can be controversial.
As an example, I didn’t say that I want cancel confirms taken out of sf5. That would be dumb. The game is based on them and making many reaction tests in super small amounts of time. Lots of fighting game purport to be about this but at high levels they actually aren’t. At high levels you simply won’t see this or that strategy from good players becaus it’s terrible. And because it’s terrible you don’t have to waste time thinking about it. But when you first come across it, it can take you by surprise and you can lose a game or 2 before adjusting to the lack of skill, but then once you adjust, you win easier. That why goood players don’t do it.
This doesn’t really apply to sf5 till one gets to like… idk. Grandmaster or someshit. Before that the game is just a bunch of Steve Carell mofos sitting on a horse holding a grenade and screaming at the world. Hard to outreact the stupidity that sf5 allows people to play with.
I say that to illustrate how important reactions are to sf5 OUTSIDE cancel confirms. The game is based around these kinds of reactive components. Being able to jab dashes on reaction is probably a stronger skill to have than 1 hit confirms till one gets to around ultra diamond level.
But reactions are the biggest thing that separates the good from the bad in sf5. Not timing execution, not game knowledge as far as footsies (though that is still very very important) not spacing. Reactions.
As far as me convoluting my long winded dissertation up above and moving goal posts. No, sorry, I didn’t. You may not have noticed that I summarized the entire post in the first sentence. The rest of the post is the EXPLANATION, dumbed down for easy digestion, as I like things when someone explains shit to me as well.
I’d get to your other points but I can’t remember them off hand and don’t feel like quoting a big post and following with another big post.