Seriously, stop saying that the Japanese discover everything. There are a hell of a lot of things that people in North America discover. Just recently, Nibor posted about a V-Gen infinite that nobody knew about, even Bas. Apoc showed shit with Rog that caught the Japanese off guard when they came over. Let’s not even get into MvC2. Japanese playing style is still a lot different than that of North American players. They frown upon the use of O. Sagat in ST. You’d think with some of the tricks they know with Chun or Ken, like fucked up super storing or 100% safe meaty jump-ins, that they wouldn’t need to “ban” the use of O. Sagat. My point is, basing an argument solely on what the Japanese say, is just using another opinion.
js2756: Just a simple question - if Gamest magazine or Famitsu published a ranking chart, would you be more apt to respect it MORE or LESS than someone who doesn’t even play Ryu?
Simple question… more or less?
Please don’t get me wrong. I never said that our Japanese counterparts were gods. I do think, however, that their research (in general) is far more thorough than… say… someone who doesn’t even play Ryu.
Therefore, it wouldn’t matter if he’s Apoc, 2-pac, or even ChickenPoc, I can’t give his opinion much respect at all regarding this matter. If he doesn’t even play Ryu (like he says HIMSELF), then he has little room to respond regarding strategy directly regarding Ryu (vs Guile).
Do take an opportunity to read his first post which outlines his proposed strategy against Guile. And then notice that he has the nerve to say that my two cents were “mid-level”. LOL! What do you think?
Uh, no. How are you going to say I post like a scrub when you start replies like this. Why not ask the Japanese how different it is? Or maybe take a minute to think seeing as how you have some experience to speak of and I’m sure you’ll understand beyond this kind of shitty speculation. Seriously, you must just want to flame. No one “acts” like they know and yet posts shit that could come from a moron. Oh wait, a moron that can act through text may. My bad.
Seriously, if you think the differences between the 2 styles is merely that deep, I actually thought more of you. It’s obvious you put no thought into your posts really and I have no reason to discuss anything with an arrogant half-wit. A half-wit maybe. Arrogant half-wits are just annoyances I put on ignore.
If you want to have any intelligent conversation you have to think intelligently even if you’re only trying to flame. It makes it interesting and you don’t get ignored so fast.
Have fun ruining ol skool threads.
Apoc.
Just to clarify…when I say that I don’t play Ryu I mean that I don’t use him as my main. I’ve been playing SF for over a decade. I can beat the majority of shoto users with Ryu on most sf games regardless of whether or not he’s my main. It’s a matter of strategy and footsies(renka-in Japan).
Feel free to approach and test my Ryu wherever you see me on whichever SF.
However, I’m not about to post on ol skool threads when I have to give credentials. I’d as soon not post.
I posted half-assed in the first place, yet, it’s still enough to win that match a majority of the time without knowing the entire match. I was simply helping. Take it or leave it. However, I do and am always willing to back up whatever I say on the game. HF will be at MWC. It might help to know that I specialized in beating shotos and Guile early on. They were the most commonly used characters so I know and can play them pretty well. Better than most that use them as their main. Bottom line, at least I’m willing to show and prove. Take confidence in that. I put my money where my mouth is even against the Japanese.
Just clarifying.
Apoc.
Brian: Apoc is correct to say that I do know a little better than to say that there is no difference between side-by-side and head-to-head. But my argument is that the difference is not a technical difference - it’s a difference in “feel,” if you will. However, I cannot concede that this difference would give Ryu an advantage. BUT…
I did mention that in a Ryu/Guile matchup, Ryu needs to anticipate more while Guile is more reaction oriented. Playing side-by-side does SEEM to help with anticipation more than playing head-to-head. Perhaps Apoc was referring to this same idea? Let me explain.
When playing beside an opponent, which most of us are used to here in the US, an experienced player may be able to get a (for lack of a better word) “psychic” sense of what his opponent is going to do. Other things include: immediately knowing who your opponent is (so you might know what to expect), feeling the body language of your opponent, and other intangibles that might give you certain indications. All of these things may help you to be better prepared to anticipate your opponent.
When playing head-to-head, most of those things are no longer available for you to take advantage of. It’s comparable to fighting a CPU with AI (depending on the level of your opponent of course). You can still anticipate certain things and read certain patterns, but there’s a certain “feel” that you cannot take advantage of. Plus, most of us are just not used to it.
However, technically, the game is still the same - whether it’s head-to-head or side-by-side. And technically, the matchup is not as straightforward as some of the people who replied indicated. Another words, if you’re playing Ryu and a Guile player steps up and defeats you, there’s no need to feel as though you’ve been beaten in a matchup that you should’ve won. There is no “should’ve won” between a Ryu/Guile matchup.
Ryu vs Honda - you (Ryu) should’ve won, or Dhalsim vs Zangief - you (Dhalsim) should’ve won. (Back in HF). But not the case with Ryu/Guile.
Hope that helps… anyone.
Apoc: I’m really not as arrogant as I seem to be. I apologize to all about my initial unjustified “flame.” But let’s forget about personalities and get back to the subject matter. Agreed? Regarding the subject, am I saying anything that is totally disagreeable?? If you were a top player back in the day, then I’d be surprised to hear you say that anything I’ve mentioned (about strategy/matchup) is totally disagreeable.
What do you say?
That’s some big words there. So are you going to back up your words? He’s going to compete at MWC. Are you?
unless of course you opped for the easy way out and hide?
:lame:
So far what I see is two sides to this, on one side is Apoc, who has proven himself countless times. On the other side is you, ghgh , whose only basis is on someone else’s words. Tough choices. :lol:
I rarely post, but I have to say somethings since I see too many ‘scrub’ post like yours popping up lately. The evidence? none.
If it matters, I got several japanese ST/HF match videos 
Also I am well aware of Famitsu and Gamest ranking, but it sounds like that is all you have to back up what you say. Nothing that is your own. sheep? drone?
No offense.
In addition: Apoc’s Ryu (since he’s a old champion) could probably take out the average Guile. In fact, if he’s an old champion (like he says he is), his Ryu could probably take out every other typical character. But at this point, we’re talking about the player instead of talking about the character… you see?
It’s like Larry Bird telling you to just shoot the 3-pointer, make it, and win the game. Ummm… it’s not that easy for most people.
In short, he’s speaking from his own experience. Although I’m sure my experience rivals his, I’m speaking (as strictly as I can) from an analysis aspect.
If someone would like my take on specific strategy versus Ryu or Guile - or even test me - feel free to ask. Anything to help out the community.
neoKen: Does your father happen to be Don King?
I’m not too familiar with MWC, but I assume it’s one of the big tournaments where scores and scores of nerds get together and play games ALL day - maybe even ALL WEEKEND long. I can imagine dudes dressing up like ChunLi and other dudes walking around performing imaginary fireball motions with their hands. C’mon - am I right or am I right?? And 98% of the people don’t even believe they have a chance at winning anything, but they “just go for fun”, right? And I may be wrong, but I betcha Capcom probably doesn’t even host it, right? Instead, they probably are sitting back saying the same thing I said above…??
Don’t be ashamed - if that’s your thing then fine. It’s just not mine. Don’t be fooled though - yes I have experienced top notch competition… as I previously mentioned. Despite what you may think, tournaments aren’t the only place you can play against top notch competition. Heck, I bet at least 75% of the people who go still never get the experience the top notch comp 'cause they never meet them in the brackets.
My fun is competition - not grouping together with hoards of gamers who have no intention on winning - talking about combos, and ratios, and teams, and what StreetFighter 10 should look like, etc… Don’t you guys get a headache after a while???
neoKen, you’re right, you don’t want me to get offended. If I did, I’d be able to make you lose all of the self-esteem that your precious video games helped build in yourself.
Just curious, but what was the point in your post anyways? You gave no helpful information whatsoever. Are you just trying to support Apoc? Cool. Are you trying to hook up with him or something??.. Then just come right out of the closet and say it. This is 2003 - people like you are accepted.
LOL!
nice attack, but other than that? what does it say about your statements? That you rather talk rubbish than compete given from your excuse not to attend. I side with apoc on his view because he has a lot of tournament experience. You don’t. But what is your response? some half ass statements. lame:
how typically childish. Are you even an ‘adult’ yet? It’s not funny anymore except maybe when we were back in elementary school.
Like I mentioned earlier, funny how you throw out Gamest/Famitsu. All I can say is so what? I have the rankings and the videos, but I am not going to use that for my support.:
neoKen: Please don’t say “nice attack.” If you think that was an attack, you definitely wouldn’t want to offend me. Let’s stop with the nonsense and steer back to the subject.
You refer to me as a “sheep” or “drone” because I use a Japanese gaming publication as my backup, right? Then you say that you “side with Apoc on his view because he has a lot of tournament experience”?? Doesn’t that put you in a similar category? Honestly…
At the least, I have my own ideas about the matter which HAPPENS to be supported by the Japanese data. I did not form the opinion because of the Japanese rankings. Does that make sense to you? You on the other hand… well, just review the reasoning you gave for your stance.
Is it sinking in yet?
And your last statement is quite… stupid. (Forgive me, but it’s true.) You say that you “have rankings and the videos, but I am not going to use that for my support.” What would you use as your support then?? Friends and family? Opinions of every nerd who’s been to more than a handful of tournaments?? Or maybe you never use support to backup your opinions?
LOL!
Take your reasoning outside of the video game arena (into reality) and this is how you sound: “Oh professor, I have references from several researchers regarding studies and surveys that support my topic, but I’m not going to refer to them to support my theory.”
“F” on YOUR term paper, buddy.
Honest question: Have you graduated yet?
You can hate me 'cause I seem arrogant - fine. But don’t try to dismantle my argument if your only support is “I side with <name> because he has a lot of tournament experience.” You shouldn’t have even posted anything in the first place if that was the extent of your input.
hush.
Not totally disagreeable. In fact most characters are solid in HF so the gap in matches isn’t so great. I honestly do believe that Ryu has an easier time controlling the match with reaction rather than anticipation. The fact that Guile can’t keep up in the fireball fight leaves him taking block damage and trying another avenue which the Ryu player is looking to react to. That alone is an advanage keeping Ryu one step ahead. All things considered though I would say that the match would be about 6-4 in Ryu’s favor. That’s speaking realistically knowing that not everyone is an expert. 6-4 is clear enough of a differential to declare a winner and knowing how to set up that simple low strong counter into 2in1 really slides it clearly in Ryu’s favor at mid-levels. It’s very easily employed and Guile needs to be advanced to avoid it consistantly. Guile can never completely command the match because of charging. Even using the hopping knee to pump out sonics can’t work cuz the 2nd boom can eats a hurricane on reaction outside of a wake-up.
That’s what I really think of the match. Flaming aside. It’s a truly great match but I definately see Ryu the clear victor overall.
About this part of your post:
"When playing beside an opponent, which most of us are used to here in the US, an experienced player may be able to get a (for lack of a better word) “psychic” sense of what his opponent is going to do. Other things include: immediately knowing who your opponent is (so you might know what to expect), feeling the body language of your opponent, and other intangibles that might give you certain indications. All of these things may help you to be better prepared to anticipate your opponent.
When playing head-to-head, most of those things are no longer available for you to take advantage of. It’s comparable to fighting a CPU with AI (depending on the level of your opponent of course). You can still anticipate certain things and read certain patterns, but there’s a certain “feel” that you cannot take advantage of. Plus, most of us are just not used to it."
I’d just like to add that while their are extra indications to react to, the real difference comes from the need to control your reactions. On side by side you can use all of the “advantages” listed that your opponent might be using against him. If my opponent is keen on body language then I can act aggressively to cause reaction. It’s much harder to control composure in American style. The screen is all that matters on head to head. For example, on side by side I can make you think you see a sonic boom whereas on head to head it’s completely obvious right off whether I’ve thrown one or not. Side by side you have to wait a split second to see if I threw one since I jerked the stick forward after blocking for 2 seconds and slammed the panel next to the button. Everything but the screen tells you that I threw won. You have to be discerning very quickly to not be fooled because I will be looking for that moment of confusion.
Just wanted to show an example of the other side of the coin that may better illustrate the clear difference. I could play next to a Japanese player and do that sonic boom fake with Rog rushes and bait counters all day. I did it to Bas all day in casual. It was great for a laugh because we both knew that he just wasn’t accustomed to those kinda tricks so his reflexes just went off because he’s used to being able to take everything at face value(screen only). I’d just tap the stick forward hard and out would come Bas’s dp or another counter leaving me the free hit. In America that would be elementary but in Japan that would be dirty because it is, in fact, a whole different ballgame.
Apoc.
O.ryu gives guile a really hard time because of his faster fireball recovery…:evil:
This discussion is kind of silly because I’m not even sure if it helps the original poster to begin with. It really depends on what both players do. Guile has an easymode Ryu “counter” (sonic boom, backfist fireballs) that can frustrate his opponent into thinking “oh shit, I can’t do ANYTHING”. This is, of course, not true, and that’s where Apoc and ghgh’s posts come in handy. But seriously, take Guile against the majority of people who play HF and pick Ryu, and you can turtle up well enough to win some matches. Don’t expect it to last very long versus someone who knows the matchup, though.
Amusingly, this post has evolved, degenerated, then evolved again into a half-flame war, half intelligent discussion.
But the bottom line is Apoc is proven. ghgh, I don’t know how good you are, you could be better than Apoc…but bottom line is if you have to back up what you say.
Go to MWC.
why would he, personally, have to back up what he’s saying? He could be the worst Guile player in the world, and that doesnt prove anything about the matchup…
i stopped reading when ghgh and Apoc started going at it. i thought the two would like to know that…
i’d like to ask though, are there any articles or such that deal with the CPS2 SF (CE, HF, ST) matchups in detail? i mean reliable ones. Geekboy (very helpfully) posted up a link to Sirlin’s site that had stuff on fireball trapping, good stuff (tho i don’t entirely understand how two good players can be shotos and being at the “sweet spot” doesn’t put the other in the same position).
the mechanics on this Ryu vs Guile thing would be nice to understand a lil better. like what does the match depend on for either character, critical points, important ranges, etc.
Glass: Sorry you had to sift through the nonsense… but it’s fun to get into it like that sometimes, you know?
As far as fireball trapping, I didn’t read the article but I think I can answer your question. The sweetspot only works 1) for the person who starts it and 2) isn’t in the corner. From there I think you can figure out why it’ll only work one way.
As for MY take on the matchup - I’ll keep it as short and sweet as possible: Ryu vs Guile…
For Ryu to take advantage:
- accurate range is critical.
- being offensive and unpredictable is also critical
For Guile to take advantage:
- control range/distance.
- keep Ryu on defense.
There are a million ways for both of the characters to utilize those points, but if Ryu gets Guile in the corner trap, it is likely over. BUT newly interested ones will find that it’s not an easy task to utilize the trap… at all (especially vs Guile because of his R.somersault kick and low forward range). Likewise, if Guile gets Ryu pushed back on defense, Ryu is at a very big disadvantage. In my opinion, it’s all range and push (defense/offense) that determines who usually wins. But isn’t that usually the case anyways?
I’ll go on for those interested…
heh… i guess i’m the only one on this side of the forum who actually doesn’t know this matchup.
don’t get me wrong…
i think it’s good that the people here are correcting each other so nobody’s misled or anything. but yea, it’d be nice to keep it all clean.
Apoc: What area, what games, what characters do you play?
I’m old and retired, but I still like the comp. These newer games don’t do much for me 'cause they seem to be lacking in certain areas. The latest-greatest was Alpha3 for me, but my prime was SuperTurbo. Never know… maybe we’ll get to play each other one day. I’ve always been curious as to how good the “top” players were in the old SF series…
Anyways, back to the matchup:
Without giving away the ancient Guile killing technique, I’ll just outline a couple of things to keep in mind when playing against Guile:
- 90% of Guile players start off one of three ways a) SB b) jump attack c) wait charged (reaction).
- Only time to jump in on Guile is immediately after a SB - don’t be baited into jumping unless you see it come out.
- Don’t try to cancel a SB with a FB.
- If you feel lucky, you can attempt to ‘psychic’ DP the limbs of a Guile player who repeatedly shoots low forwards.
- Guile is very dangerous at his low forward range. Either get deeper in there on 'em or get out of there.
Couple of things to keep in mind when playing Guile against Ryu:
- The average Ryu player HAS to jump (it’s in their programming). Wait a second longer and they’ll jump.
- The average Ryu player loves throwing FBs - especially to cancel a SB.
- Crush (counter) Ryu’s early offensive attempts and the average Ryu will resort to falling back on defense (with an occasional j.attack attempt).
- Push 'em in the corner, wait, and counter.
Of course, all of these are MY opinions and are only points to consider. They’re not instructions on how to defeat Ryu/Guile, but just a guideline of possible advantages for each.
Olympia, Wa. Currently I get to play cvs2(whee). I play a3/3s/cvs2 when I can now and ST generally only in tourney throughout the years. I play Chun/Vega/Rog on every game that they’re in if they aren’t too overpowered or uninteresting(no A2/3s Chun, no ex rog on cvs1, no runaway Vega. On 3s I use Dudley. On CvS2 my new “cvs” character is Eagle. My a1 and a2 main was Adon but I won a2 tourneys with about 8 diff. characters. On A3 I "accidentily dropped Adon since Chun was good and not stupid and Vega and Rog returned. Course I’m gonna go with my OG characters. So basically, Chun/Vega/Rog/Dudley/Eagle. Although, I’m pretty competitive with anyone, those are my main. I have mastered these. I tend to stick with my characters regardless of the game or their tiering simply because, when I win, it’s less likely to be the character than it is my playing. I don’t care who Japan is using really. I’m a player, not a biter with skills posing as a player, heheh.
K…I think that covers it:D
Apoc.